The Official “The Bad Place” (13.09 – pre-Christmas finale) Live Recap Thread

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My collected recaps and reviews of season one, which first appeared on Innsmouth Free Press, are now up (with a few extras) on Kindle. The Kindle version is available through  Amazon. The print version is also up, though the cover’s needing a little tweaking right now. I’ve ordered a copy for a final galley proof to make any changes that don’t show up online (KDP doesn’t let you do that before the book goes live because KDP works for Satan).

Anyhoo, we start off with a standard recap of the season so far with some very lame generic guitar music. It’s pretty boring. This is the Nepotism Duo on again tonight, so I’m expecting to be bored and hoping not to be (too) offended. But I’m trying to keep my expectations low.

Cut to Now and a blonde white girl necking with a stereotypically long-haired Native American guy (oops, so much for avoiding offense; I can see this going ugly in a hurry), as they discuss his latest painting, her needing to go to work, and his latest client.

It turns out said client is Jack.

After the woman leaves, Jack starts asking the guy about his ability to dreamwalk to other worlds (basically, spirit travel). Jack makes it sound unique, never mind that Dean spirit travels rather frequently and as late as a few episodes ago.

But nope, the Nep Duo are in full-on white condescension mode and have Jack go on and on about the guy’s abilities in that Mystical Native American New Age stuff that many Native Americans actually quite hate.

Jack adds insult to injury by offering the guy money. Anyhoo, the guy is two months behind in his rent, so he agrees to go looking, but it goes poorly. The place he goes to is nasty and when he tries to back out, Jack uses his power to make the guy (Derek) stay and hurts him a whole lot.

Derek’s girlfriend comes home to find him dead with his eyes burned out.

Cue title cards.

Cut to Dean leaving a message with Patience, who has a conversation with her father about how she’s ignoring Dean. Sam, meanwhile, has been talking to “Castiel” (because the Nep Duo really do believe the Brothers are stupid enough to fall for low-rent Asmodeus’ trickery) and getting nothing. Then Jodie calls them and tells them about Doomed Teaser Stereotypical Native American Guy. She says Derek’s girlfriend saw Jack beforehand.

Dean recognizes Grody Alt-SPN World in one of Derek’s paintings.

In the car, Dean points out that it appears Jack has gone rogue for real and maybe they need to talk to a tribal leader to get more info. Sam deflects by saying they should talk to a young girl, another dreamwalker named Kaia, whom Derek had been corresponding with, instead. Because hey, why be culturally sensitive or leave innocents out of the fray, am I right?

Kaia, meanwhile, is in a drug support group and she has a creep for a counselor who keeps pushing her. She says that she only takes speed to keep from sleeping. The counselor continues not to get it. Yay for undercutting that whole pro-getting help message your cast is trying to send in their off-set hours, Nep Duo. Nice job. [/sarcasm]

Anyhoo, 30 seconds later, she meets Jack. Gee, I wonder if he will help her get out of the treatment center?

So, Jack cuts right to the chase and says he’s a “friend of Derek,” that she’s the most powerful dreamwalker ever, and he can get her out of stir (why do these characters always have to be the BESTEST, MOSTEST of their kind ever?). This reinforces my apprehension that the show is choosing to add on two new Wayward Sisters who are not only WoCs (fine with that) but also ridiculously overpowered with magical talents (not so fine with that). So far, it seems they will be getting the Walking Plot Device treatment that Bonnie on The Vampire Diaries got, which is not good. I’m all for the CW beginning to write young women better like … right now.

So, just as Kaia is following Jack out (I did like the way the actress played that one, so points to her for that), we see the Impala drive up. Sam infodumps to Dean – as they get out of the car – that Kaia is an orphan. She never knew Daddy and Mom died when she was 12 (what is this show’s creepy obsession with having girl characters hit the streets in their preteens?). An aunt took her in, but died of cancer. So, Kaia’s been on her own ever since because, like, this country doesn’t have any kind of foster care system, or anything. [rolls eyes]

Also, I don’t quite know why Sam is As You Know, Dean-ing as they get out of the car when they had an entire trip to get up to speed on Kaia.

So, Kaia’s jailbreak is not entirely without incident. As they’re walking out, they encounter her jerk of a counselor. Jack rather forcefully puts him to sleep and then literally busts through a locked emergency door that, oddly enough, doesn’t sound an alarm. As he puts it to Kaia, “You’re not the only one with powers.”

Kaia chooses to respond to this, once they’re outside, by casually saying sayonara and then punching him in the face and running away when he objects (and grabs her arm). This strikes me as a really stupid thing to do with someone you’ve just seen act extremely powerful and lowers my estimation of her after my previous lukewarm response. Especially since the only reason she gets away from him is because the Brothers bust out through the same door at that moment and grab Jack.

Talking ensues in which Jack explains that he left Derek alive and that he found Derek after doing research and experimenting with his powers – he can travel between worlds, but he can’t navigate very well. They both traveled to Grody Alt-SPN World, where Jack saw Mary being tortured in a sort of Iron Maiden device and yelling for help, but Derek wasn’t quite strong enough to let Jack go there and rescue her.

After Jack shows the Brothers what he saw, he and Sam have a clinical infodumpy conversation in the background while a shocked Dean has his entire season’s purpose realigned – now that he knows for sure she’s alive and in trouble, he’s gonna save Mom.

Meanwhile, Kaia, a girl who supposedly has been on her own for years, promptly gets kidnapped by angels in a dodgy old station wagon while hitchhiking. [sigh] The stupid is strong with this character.

I really hate these incessant Riverdale and Dynasty commercials.

Back to Patience, who is having Yet Another Vision of Jodie (in the middle of traffic, no less) dying, and of the Brothers someplace dark. Nothing really new there, then, but it’s enough to get her off her tail and trying to contact Dean.

Over to Kaia, tied up in a warehouse and being Evil Overlord Monologued by the angels about how they tortured and killed Derek (lest the Brothers get involved because surely, that wouldn’t alert Sam and Dean – oh, wait), that he’s the son of Lucifer, and that they’re using Kaia as bait.

Remember when angels weren’t stupid? I kinda miss those days. The wings bit, too.

Driving this home (literally, in fact), the Brothers are in the Impala with Jack in the backseat, trying to find Kaia. Dean is now obsessed with rescuing Mary and says that Sam was right. Sam at least has enough motherwit to admit that he was willing to bust open worlds on “hope” rather than certainty, but they’re both on the same page about going to get her.

Jack … is moping that they thought he killed Derek. Even though his incidental and accidental body count is actually rather high. Am quite tired of this. Suck it up, Jack. You’re a killer. Move on.

Sam starts to waffle, but Dean cuts straight to the point – they thought Jack went to find Lucifer. Jack protests that Lucifer means nothing to him and that TFW are his family (Dean agrees, including Mary in the circle). Watch out for those foreshadowing anvils, folks. They’re awfully dense this season.

Welp, the plot still needs to move along. Jack gets a message through Angel Radio that they have Kaia.

Chez Patience, she’s packing and leaving. Her dad, rather than leave the door open, gives her the John speech and tells her not to come back if she leaves because reasons. Ugh. What is it with the writing this week? So formulaic and nonsensical.

Meanwhile, Kaia is giving a rather boring speech to the woman angel about how she’s not good bait. She’s not a blonde white girl and no one will come for her because “I don’t matter.” The angel agrees with her, but says that the Winchesters think she matters, so they’ll come, the angels will kill them, and the angels will kill Jack. Because that’s worked out so well for them so far.

The Brothers and Jack show up, having grabbed the male angel. To get the ball rolling, the male angel improbably gets loose from Dean and there’s a fight. Jack, in excruciatingly slow motion (that’s a really dull effect, Show. Just saying), tosses the woman angel through a glass window, then forces the male angel, who is trying to stab Dean (Sam got knocked out, or something), to stab himself. Meanwhile, the woman angel somehow gets away.

So, Maia, inexplicably, doesn’t respond especially well to any of this. She actually wants to run off again (because that worked out so well for *her*) and calls them all “insane.”

“Yeah, well, the whole world’s insane. Get used to it,” Dean tells her. Go Dean.

Sam then goes the Savior route, saying that Kaia can help them save Mary. Kaia doesn’t want to help them, even though (as Dean points out to her) they just saved her life. Kaia is really bad at this whole reciprocity thing.

Kaia then tries the Pity route, saying that she only ever goes to one place in her dreams – The Bad Place (this is an obvious, but very spoilery reference to a certain current show). She says she comes back with scars and she doesn’t want to help them.

Dean (a guy who has seen and done far, far worse things than Kaia could even imagine) does what the audience wanted him to do all along – pulls out his gun, and tells her to get in the car. I cheer a little because as much as the show wants me to sympathize with Kaia, she’s irritating the hell out of me with her “Me, first” whining.

Anyhoo, in the car, Sam tries to talk to Dean about this new obsession of his and Dean shuts him down with Hey, you said you wanted Mom back, too. In the back, Jack asks Kaia to let him show her what he and Derek say. She reluctantly agrees and then has her world rocked.

But before we can find out if she’s on board with all this, yet, or not, the Impala nearly gets sideswiped by the old station wagon. It’s the surviving angel. A car chase ensues.

The Impala arrives at a rotting old barge on a dock for some random reason. Dean gets out and opens the trunk for a bag. He tosses it at the others and tells them to get on the boat while he plays rearguard.

The angel arrives in her, uh, station wagon.

She gets out and reiterates her intent to get Jack so he can make new babies for angels (mind you, the angels still have no plan how to deal with Jack and his powers – like, at all). Then reinforcements show up. In other crappy cars.

Dean bails and runs into the boat. The Brothers make angel sigils and the angels start blasting them from the outside. Kaia finally steps up and says she can help Jack send the four of them to another world.

BTW, we’ve got new incidental music, y’all. Don’t think we had any classic rock at all this week. Guess Jack’s FX cost too much.

So, Jack and Kaia go to the Bad Place and Jack starts showing her how to go somewhere else. He sees other worlds, then Grody Alt-SPN World and Mary. Dean yells at Jack to hurry up, but Kaia is losing the direction. She screams as her face glows. The angels are all blasted to dust and all four of TFW 2.0 vanish, leaving behind a glowing rift (I’m sure this won’t create any future problems).

Muting the Riverdale ad because ugh.

At her house, Jody is calling Sam and leaving him a message to call her. She’s worried. The doorbell rings and it’s Patience. Patience says she “had a vision,” but rather than tell Jody what it is (that Jody died. Again), she just says that “something bad is coming.”

Pan over the rotting barge (apparently, the angels are really dead) to a roadside in daytime, with Kaia lying unconscious. Then we see Mary in her cage in Grody Alt-SPN World looking down at Jack waking up on the floor. Then Dean and Sam wake up in The Bad Place and walk (unknowingly) through a Godzilla footprint while something large screeches and stomps in the near distance.

Credits. Obviously.

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166 thoughts on “The Official “The Bad Place” (13.09 – pre-Christmas finale) Live Recap Thread”

  1. Was in a hotel with cable and caught a bit of season 6 on tv.
    Crowley faked his death in 6. I had forgotten that.
    Dean’s cockroach comment this season.
    I cannot but hope demon Crowley is still around.

    1. Personally, I found the guy who played Stefan hotter. Didn’t really care for the way Damon was constantly widening his eyes for dramatic effect.

  2. Author Stiles, HOW did the show try to make SPN like Vampire Diaries or Gossip Girl?

    Did they try to sex the show up or something I missed? Which seasons would you say they tried to change the show’s ‘flavor’ because I can’t see it at all?

    I would like you to respond just so I can really try to re-examine a season you said they were doing A or B.

    1. Episodes like “Man’s Best Friend with Benefits” and “Bloodlines” (which even had former TVD cast members in it) were pretty clearly based on The Vampire Diaries and its spin-off The Originals, to the point that numerous critics and fans commented on it. There’s actually an episode called “Bloodlines” in season one of TVD. I kid you not.

      The casting of Bela in season three was the result of a direct network mandate that one female recurring lead (Ruby) was not enough on the show. This was during the time when Dawn Ostroff’s favorite show Gossip Girl was considered the flagship of the network and she was intent on making it the blueprint for all CW shows, existing and proposed. Ironically, Gossip Girl has come into a lot of criticism over the years for its misogynistic storylines and one of its male leads has recently been accused of rape.

      1. I see about Gossip Girl, they were trying to ‘sex-up’ SPN with Bela. Like the fantasy Sam had in Red Sky at Morning? Makes sense.

        That stuff about Ed Westwick is pretty gross.

        Also it was SO strange to me that Blair and Serena were supposed to be besties but I never ever got that feeling from them. I liked each of them separately, but I felt they were always in competition.

        I see your point about Bloodlines, but I thought that the kid who had been on TVD and was the shape-shifter lead was MUCH better on SPN than on TVD because he was a whiny brat there. Matter of fact, the acting on TVD was just not good.

        So I don’t see that much there just because I find SPN a much superior product to either of the two shows mentioned. EVERY damn season ‘somebody’ was going after Serena, or she was fragile about something, I could see her as a Sam-gets-tied-up meme herself. As for TVD, both brothers were terrible people…I mean Stefan ‘forced’ Damon to become a vampire when Damon wanted to DIE and then Damon became an evil EVIL vampire. Ick.

        But I see that Bloodlines (SPN) with its numerous monster-types all living in Chicago as being just like Mystic Falls.
        Thanks for the quick response.

        Merry Christmas to you (just turned after midnight here).

        1. Damon actually isn’t evil. He does shitty things at times but it’s more payback and anger management. He can be petty which is dangerous when one is powerful and supsrnatural.

          Stephen actually is a ripper. If he indulges his bloodlust he becomes a nihilistic beserker. He actually is evil at times.

          Everyone who becomes a vampire goes through dangerous phases where they seem evil because one has to learn to control the bloodlust. Even Elena.
          A very silly show.

          1. I couldn’t stand Damon’s lame and selfish excuses for being evil. At least Stefan owns up to them. I’ll take evil that owns up to it over emo evil any day of the week.

        2. Woody. The stuff about all of these men is pretty gross. But then a majority of women have been physically molested, sexually harassed and treated as sexual objects by random men rather than as vakued co-workers or intelligent human beings… I know that I have been sexualizes and devalued since I was a small child. I was a brain in high school with 1400 SAT and perfect ACT scores who was treated like a dumb blond by most guys when sober and like a sex doll for their groping pleasure when drunk. I dated gay guys as a result and often didn’t date or dumped probably very nice suitors when they got handsy too fast because triggers…
          The sexism and racism, bigotry, xenophia in this country is disgusting. After 2016 we ate all eyes wide open. I think the anger that grew out of the fact an admitted serial sexual assaulter and probable racist and pedophile could not be contained. There is no fury like a woman scorned has new meaning.
          I hope it leads to more than temporary lip service against sexual assault. Dems should run a lot of wimmin next year and have two wimmin on the 2020 ticket.

          1. You know, I sometimes think my evangelical/fundamentalist background was good for one thing – I never was physically or sexually molested. (I know plenty of others were). And this is not to say sexism wasn’t rampant, it just took a different form. We were meant to keep ourselves pure, for our future husbands sakes, and I was a “good girl” so mostly stayed away from dating. And thinking. Marriage was always the end goal. And motherhood, which was idealized. But pity the poor girl who ended up pregnant. And God forbid if you were gay. Or trans. And the traditional roles you were expected to follow once you were married were completely toxic. I’ve long thought that group stopped worshipping God ages ago, and instead worships some weird idealized version of the family. And yet they were some of Trump’s biggest supporters. Obviously, critical thinking is not encouraged. I was slowly being driven mad.

          2. You were sexually harassed in a different way. I am glad you got out.
            Not only is that culture not Christian or of christ because it is completely man made, it requires ignorance and repression.
            And they are complete hypocrites about sex… look at that entire Roy Moore mess. He was a pedophile and pervert and it was explained away as biblical. The man was banned from a shopping mall. He would have won too were it not for African Americans who supported a guy that fought to bring murdering klansmen to justice.
            Women are second class citizens and sex objects. So glad to be fat, 56 and invisible. Well actually I hate being fat, I just love the protection it affords me.

  3. I watched Hammer of the Gods today and I have a question that always bemused me: I think Kali actually ‘cared for’ or I’ll use the word LOVED Baldur.

    They hinted that she ‘cared for’ Loki/Gabriel, but she had no problem killing him. She turned down Dean’s blandishments in the coffee shop and while she said You’re sweet to Baldur (I hate sweet) she did not actually fool around with Loki (he obviously over-thought her attraction to him). I think she attacked Lucifer not just to get out of the room but because he had just killed Baldur.

    When Loki denigrated Baldur she said, he’s not complicated. For me she had found a person she could trust. He was the one who talked her down from killing Mercury. She ‘listened’ to him.

    I agree I’m probably reading too much into this I know. But I liked her and wish they bring her back sometimes. Hey, have an AU in which the Hindu Pantheon is in charge (like Lord of Light). I would love it if Sam and Dean went ‘investigated’ all the AU worlds.

  4. Oh I went to the library to get my internet ‘fix’ and my husband called me THREE times to tell me things like “Sam is tied to a chair” or “Sam just got beaten up by Gandhi” and he had a big big giggle about Dean getting beaten up by Paris Hilton. He just kept calling.

      1. No, not that he remembered. Now “I” have watched it many times, and love the two girls who were Paris Hilton fans and Paris Hilton and Gandhi the ‘fruitarian.’ If he watched it before he forgot it but he thought it was HILARIOUS. I mean THREE phone calls are a LOT imo.

  5. My internet got back yesterday.

    I watched The Exorcist tonight and am sorry about the ending; the kids got a ‘good’ life (with Rose) and Marcus rec’d another vision from God, so Mouse was wrong that Marcus would not be back, I think he is coming back to help Tomas.

    I did not want what happened to Andy, he was ‘such’ a good person.

    I found Alicia Witt really creepy as Nikki, she was creepy as Lily Sunder too but this was REALLY creepy.

    1. The showrunners said they needed to change things up in terms of the possesseds’ fates in season two, to retain the sense of danger and high stakes, but didn’t want the kids to have a really horrible ending on top of it.

      Apparently, the merger with Disney could adversely effect the show’s chances for a season three (even more than the show’s ratings, which were already so lousy in season one that it must have been renewed for other reasons). That said, someone pointed out that it could take a while for things to settle out from the merger and they might just renew everything they had in-house to keep things stable for now. In that case, regardless of its ratings, The Exorcist could even see a season four because shows that make it to season three usually get a season four:

      Still, not relying on that because it could just as easily be canceled at this point.

      And I agree about Witt. Never liked her because I always thought she was a bit snarky and creepy when it wasn’t appropriate for her character, but that really worked here. She made a great demon.

    2. I think Tomas is possessed and Mouse is a stone cold killer. They waited too long to shoot Andy. And Tomas is too full of hubris,about his gift.
      That demon was too strong to go quietly. He is not integrated but he is possessed.
      Now Bennett is possessed too thanks to Mouse’s anger.
      Marcus is literally the only tool in ths tool box. Probably the issue was not that God stopped talking. Marcus stopped listening because Tomas was triggering all of his guilt about Mouse. It’s obvious Marcus shut down emotionally because his emotions not only failed mouse , they lead her astray in the first place. The flashback with mouse and his,relationship with the young girl shows us he is,actually a very emotional person and those emotions gave him compassion and an ability to help more people.

      Great finale.

      1. How is what happened to Father Bennett on Mouse? There is a nice article re The Exorcist on

        I think Mouse is at the end of her tether with so many demons in the world. I think she is seeing the ‘big picture’ but that Tomas and Marcus were dealing with ANDY (a little picture problem).

        It is a question of WHAT does one do with the demons. Kill the host, kill the demon; exorcise the host, the demon is still alive and looking for the ‘next’ host to destroy.

        Marcus believed he killed ‘an innocent.’ AND HE DID.

        So glad God talked to him at the end. HOPE the series gets renewed, I will say it made me uncomfortable because it is SO much less hopeful than Supernatural.

        1. Mouse lost it when the demon taunted her and she killed it violently in anger which caused an explosion. Bennett was injured in the fallout.

          Mouse was damaged by her possession and Marcus’ abandonment. She is f’d up.
          Tomas was foolish. ANDY died for nothing because now that demon is in Tomas. He fell into the it trap. It is obvious that the visions were a set up to get him to thast place so he would fall prey to rhast powerful demon.

          Marcus is alone except for God now. Mouse is crazy and Bennett. And Tomas are demon infested.

          Great finale. Goid subtle world building this season. Puts dabbler and hacks to shame

          1. She should not gave left Bennett either.
            She should have cauterized his wound, broke into a pharmacy for meds and nursed him around the clock.
            Losing Bennett and Tomas… huge blows.

  6. Paula this is going to sound weird, but what was the cage in which Mary was imprisoned called?

    I thought it was called a crows’ cage because people were hung in them around a city and starved to death and then crows picked their flesh off their bones.

    An Iron Maiden is a giant SOLID bell-type thing which has spikes in it and was used to actually KILL people wasn’t it? Or were the spikes there to prevent the person from leaning and resting inside (as a form of torture in itself)?

    People are referring to it as an Iron Maiden and I thought it was NOT an Iron Maiden.

      1. I remember in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies (which one, the second?) they had decaying bodies in what we see Mary in ‘now’ and called them crows’ cages. So the technical name is a gibbet?


        Oh just to bitch and moan, my internet went down yesterday so I am here at my friendly neighborhood library getting all the news. My carrier ‘swore’ they would have it up and running by 2:32pm today (isn’t ‘that’ a little weird, 2:32pm?) but I have no actual faith it will be up today.

        1. It is a gibbet, yes.

          Sorry to hear about your internet. I hate when they dawdle on fixing it and act as though it’s not a necessary utility. It’s the 2010s, folks. It’s a necessary utility.

  7. I missed about a spin-off with gas and Jack last year however the actor is doing a great job and he is pro ably the strongest young actor they have featured. Depower him and create a good backstory…

    On another note. I have a weird suspicion about mouse and have since she flipped our when the demon mentioned her relationship with Marcus in Chicago.
    She murdered human priests last episode and apparently a parking lot attendant.
    Can she be a sleeper demon biding its,time until it has access to Marcus. His power is from God which majrs him their most powerful antagonist.
    Tomas appears to be another pawn that was used against him and,easily manipulated through his hubris of needed to be chosen by God (shades of,Sam).

    1. Can you do a quick recap of Friday’s The Exorcist? I somehow screwed up recording it. I saw a teaser on which showed Mouse killing the two ‘hitmen’ but I did not know they were hitmen ‘priests’ and I saw the dead attendant but thought ‘they’ killed him.

      Now I am ticked off I missed it and made sure it is set to tape next Friday.

      1. Yeah I missed the beginning of that scene. It looked to me like the priests gpund tbe parking lot attendant and the priest did not seem to be possessed because she shot them with a gun and we didn’t see any sign of exiting demons.

        She seriously overreacted to the rich Chicago demon when previously she has been so completely in control. I am expecting some twist.

        1. Haven’t watched beyond the Chicago demon assassination, yet (have been very busy and am debating waiting until the season finale to catch up), but I think we can all tell there’s something really wrong with Mouse and that it’s related to her past exorcism.

  8. Oh Paula, a ratings question: did the Plus 7 put SPN for Thanksgiving UP TO a .8 rating or is that just factored into the .3 from Thanksgiving Day itself?

    1. The final same-night rating was a 0.3. The Live+7 rating was a 0.8. They’re different ratings. It’s just a question of which one the network gives more weight to. Since it’s Supernatural and the show generally does very well, both in same-night and DVR (and the DVR was more-or-less normal for the show), the network will probably ignore the same-night rating for that week as a holiday anomaly.

  9. Personally, I thought the episode dragged, though I did enjoy seeing the angels working together to bring down the warding. As a group, very focused and intense. That’s the first time in ages I remember seeing so many work together for a common goal. They are usually too busy fighting each other. I wonder if Castiel felt echoes of that.

    Dean forcing others to do things against their will to serve his own deeply cherished goal sounds reminiscent of late season eight, when he insisted Sam finish the trials. I wonder if he will come to a late in the day realization that the cost is too high, and opt out at the last. And if so, I hope the writers don’t deconstruct him once again for supposed selfishness like occurred in season nine.

    1. Yeah I agree.
      Dean was definitely out to get Crowley in 8 and it tapped into his feelings,about losing Mary.
      It is too late to back out. The rift is torn which we knew would happen 100% since Billie had a chat with Dean. Dean is important in fixing things… definitely has to mean Dean!Michael versus meglomanic baby killing Michael.

          1. I have noticed my autofill working on words when I am typing and I don’t notice until after it is posted that so many times my words are not at all what I wanted to put in there.

            OK, Amara. Anybody got any ideas where Chuck and Amara went? It looked like they ‘combined’ and maybe exist in eternal bliss or something but Lord knows I do not know that. Is Chuck still keeping an eye on His creation?

    2. I did not see Dean as deconstructed for supposed selfishness. I saw Dean blaming himself, which he akways does and decided to sacrifice himself for a win because he is a failure and at least he can do one goid thing before he dies. Tbis perfect storm of low self worth, excessive self blame and setting it to change t through a desperate sacrifice is Dean’s fatal flaw and like Sam’s hubris exploring it was an important part of the Carved years.
      Unfortunately there was no resolution and Dean gas already fallen back to this when he abruptly killed himself. So yes this will definitely be his default when he realizes they have rift issues, etc. I am positive it will lead to Dean!Michael. After all it lead to the Mix, the righteous man in hell and to Dean saying yes to Michael in 5 although then Zachariah really f’d up by using the wrong sale pitch. Dean does reckless tbings for a win when he blames himself and is depressed.
      It is his thing.

  10. I strongly disagree with you about the episode. I loved it.

    I ‘hate’ that Dean pulled a gun on Kaia but I ‘get’ from just that close-up of his face while Sam and Jack were info-exchanging I ‘knew’ that like in Season 7 when the whole thrust of the season was Dean killing Dick Roman (every card in my hit list). Before that season we had never seen Dean acting out of Revenge but I believe here he was: Dick killed Bobby in front of him (you’re laughing because you’re scared or you’re laughing because you’re stupid — I love that line). THAT was also a Dean we never saw before, the Guy Who Gets The Job Done. And here he is again.

    Just for you, Paula, I wanted to tell you there is speculation that Sam and Dean are going to run into the LOVECRAFT gods! Wouldn’t that be terrific? My first thought was a dinosaur (I have seen lots of other people speculate it was a dinosaur) but Husband Peter said, NO dinosaur was ever that big. I said Go-Jira? He said better Go-Jira than a dinosaur I said a Dragon? He said, nah, they don’t have lizard dragons on this show, they have Purgatory dragons that look like people. (See, he watches with me quite a bit and knows ‘most’ of the canon.)

    I liked the way the Angels disappeared the warding, it was so intense. I liked the music they had in that scene. I liked the frantic nature of Kaia/Jack ‘getting into’ the different worlds.

    I will say however the one thing I DO NOT WANT is the Wayward Sisters all getting together to save Sam and Dean. I want them to save themselves. I am not sure now if Sam was holding the duffel with all the armaments and stuff in it. I believe that Dean has already been in one of these 24hr ‘combat’ worlds so he will be able to suss out how to survive pretty quickly.

    For any and all upset about Dean pointing a gun at Kaia, I was ‘guided’ by how Sam said ‘dean’ (lower case really) and then said nothing when Dean went into Deep Voice Mode. Not even JACK gainsaid what Dean said and we KNOW Jack could’ve put Dean down. (We ‘know’ that the Angels would’ve chased down Kaia to kill her to leave no witnesses; they TOLD Kaia that! Why she thought she could run was beyond me.) And one last thing: Kaia looked ‘motivated’ but she DID NOT LOOK SCARED to me. Not one bit. She looked like, Shit, THIS guy means it! Not THIS guy is going to kill me. Just My Opinion.

    1. They can’t bring in Lovecraft gods without totally screwing up the canon of the end of season six. In the show, Lovecraft tapped into Purgatory. We already have an idea what killed him. It’s not really a mystery.

      Your husband might be right about the size of the dinosaur only if this is a reality where the Chiczulub Meteor hit. If it didn’t in that world, all bets are pretty much off how large a dinosaur could get by 2017, especially with writers who play this loose with science (ignoring the thinning atmosphere and cooling climate over time, for example).

      I don’t have a problem with Dean pulling a gun on Kaia. She was being a blithering idiot and putting everyone there in serious danger. They couldn’t let her run off. The angels just would have captured her and used her to track Jack again (at best). The Winchesters and Jack actually did get to have a say. It wasn’t just about rescuing Mary and it annoyed me that the show tried to cast it as three scary guys trying to bully this innocent young girl. She was an extremely selfish character until she finally got with the program. I get “You gotta take care of you” (we had that last week and it made sense for Smash/Alice), but even Smash (acutely) understood quid pro quo. Kaia was all like, “Oh, hey, well, thanks for doing X Big Thing for me, but you chose to do that, so I don’t owe you a thing. See ya.” Very unsympathetic and not too bright.

        1. That’s a good question that has sparked much speculation and many an alternate history over the years. The short answer, of course, is that we’ll never know. It’s possible the large dinosaurs would have died out on their own, anyway, just more slowly, leaving many of those upper niches open for mammals. As for the smaller ones, it’s now believed that rather than birds evolving from dinosaurs as a separate class in the Jurassic (Archaeopteryx), birds didn’t become their own class separate from other dinosaurs until after the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event. Since the 90s, birds have been classified as a type of surviving dinosaur (so not all dinosaurs actually went extinct). The taxonomic debate over whether birds are dinosaurs or dinosaurs birds rages on.

      1. Lady Angel had already TOLD her that the killed Derek to tie up a loose end, NO WITNESSES. IF they killed Sam and Dean and took Jack (like she said) they would be back for her. Better to be with the people she already was defend themselves.

        Unlike you I liked the Jack Blast Effect. Slo-mo YES but maybe a different kind of blast. The Angel also had a lot of power and was resisting being thrown into the wall so it took multiple ‘hits’ for the Jack Blast to work. My opinion.

        I ‘liked’ Kaia for the ‘roughness’ of her character. Patience is reserved and lady-like; they will balance each other. On the other hand, I thought the whole scene in which Papa Patience (what is his name?) said, if you go out that door don’t come back, was actually AFFECTLESS. They were disagreeing but not ‘fighting’ and I thought Dad was too emotionless in the scene. Like how did they get from “Yes, dad, I have discovered I am a psychic.” Calmly spoken to, if you go I don’t ever want to see you again. What is the man’s PROBLEM? He had a wife, a mom and a daughter. He has lost TWO and now THROWS AWAY his only child. What is the matter with HIM? And again, the whole conversation should’ve been SO emotional, not the limp fish-rag it was on screen.

        1. Kaia’s father was really the opposite of John. However ugly and abusive and controlling John was, you always got the sense he loved his kids. John also kicked Sam out for the opposite reasons, and apparently promptly regretted it, although he was too proud to say so for some time.

          Kaia’s father seemed more proud of her than loving. But wit that “you know the plan” comment, it seem liked he mostly wanted to ride the upwardly mobile train of her success to the highest level of “respectability.” When he didn’t get his own way, he wrote her off.

          Contrast again with Linda Tran. She also had super high expectations for Kevin about getting into Ivy league etc., but I think hers were genuinely motivated by a belief that this would best prepare Kevin for life. (Not sure I agree) But when the plan went sideways, she didn’t abandon him, but did her best to move heaven and hell to keep him safe.

          1. I was going down the thread to ‘read’ your comments after you saw the episode.

            I want AU!Kevin Tran to get to OUR world and make it to ‘our’ Linda Tran. She is a terrific character. She took the cliché of the Asian ‘tiger mom’ and made her the fiercest bestest mom (I also think Ellen was a good mom too but Linda was a character I was always glad to see and sometimes all we got out of Ellen was her fighting with Jo).

            I will continue reading to find any more comments on the episode.

      2. She was afraid of the bad place and afraid of her powers. She was afraid of Jack and street snart ebough to know that Dean was dangerous. Also she didn’t understand the abgels,really. All she knew is that the situation got her mentor killed.
        I do not fault her at all. And they saved her for selfish reasons. They want to use her.
        Dean has no high ground here even if it is understandable. He is Mr. MYTHARC and he is going dark. All good.
        Pretty sure we are getting season 14.

        My biggest complaint is the Constantine spirit walk
        And Jurassic whatever world. I guess it is just busy work for Wayward sisters. Seriously that would mean the brothers are sidelined for several episodes whilst Jack saves Mary and Patience finds Kaia or jack finds kaia.
        Jack showing Kaia something nice reminded me of fetus Jack brainwashing mommy and Cas.

        1. Of course they saved her for selfish reasons, but they still *saved* her and it didn’t involve her having to sell her body on the street, use drugs or kill anyone. Nobody else was helping her at that point. As her little speech banged home, she’s a nobody, so for Jack and the Brothers to show up and say “You’re a very powerful person and we need you” would be huge for her. Instead, she just shrugged it off. That does not compute. This is someone putting her on the map for the very first time in her life.

          I don’t think this show properly understands what kinds of choices a teen, especially a teenage girl, has to make on the streets and how they affect her judgement calls. Smash and her “I gotta take care of me” attitude made sense. Charlie didn’t and neither does Kaia. It’s *all* about quid pro quo on the street. If someone saved her life like that, not once but twice, she would *owe* them.

          1. I think a lot of the writers have very little experience or knowledge of life divorced from privelege. It shows in their trouble creating logical back stories for characters, or realistic progression based on these stories. Claire had a ready made back story with Castiel, and her difficulties made sense within that context. With Alice, they wisely refrained from giving much back story other than the demon deal, letting the audience fill in the blanks. But Charlie and Kaia seem to have stories created solely for the purpose of getting the audience to feel sorry for them. If the follow up is then logical enough, I can go with it. But Charlie? Made no sense, especially in terms of her achievements. It can be hard enough for working class kids with supportive families to get ahead, much less someone who is alone. Not saying it’s impossible, but it would need a lot more hard work than Charlie seemed inclined toward. Mad hacking skills alone just don’t seem like a sufficient reason to have gotten to where she was, especially at her age. (Short of a demon deal. And the show never went there.) It’s not like her social skills were anything special.

            As for Kaia, you pretty accurately stated the problem with her. Both Kaia and Charlie seem like characters in badly written teen novels. (BTW I really dislike the concept of “teen novels. Age segregation anyone).

            The character who seems insufficiently explored, while having an intriguing yet tragic back story is Alex. It’s true they showed some consequences to her life in “Don’t you forget about me”, but what about the psychological ramifications of being a hostage to monsters so many years? The moral injury due to participating in their schemes? At this point, it seems more like she’s just trying to put it all behind her. But unless she is unusually resilient, I’d expect PTSD at a minimum. If any character in the show has a tragic history to rival Dean, it is Alex.

          2. Rebekah. I don’t like Alex. I thinnk the actress is weak. But definitely my reason is mostly because they have not explored her character at all exceot to have her run off a la Sam and Stanford or Sam season 8. Yes it is a normal reaction to run but it is not heroic. Even Garth became a hunter when he was confronted with the reality of the supernatural.

            Sam post Apocalypse should have devoted his life to hunting as a means of atonement. Likewise Alex.

            Claire hunts for the sam reason Dean does… so no one else has to suffer loss.

            Kaia has not been complicit in hurting people in any way. I think she is allowed to be scared.

            Patience is noble I guess in throwing her life away to help. I wish her visions were less about saving Dean who should be saving her.
            They should be more chaotic and less road maps to saving the day.

        2. I’m okay with Jurassic world, even if it’s a little silly. I thought of it as more of a “Land of the Lost” reference. Between that and Scooby, I think someone is having fun with old child hood favorites. The show has occasionally executed pretty silly concepts successfully. (I wonder if there will be sleestak)

          1. When Jack and Kaia were dream-walking and found AU!Earth and the scenes kept flipping between AU!Earth and Dino!Earth it reminded me of the scene in the original Jurassic Park where the little girl who was a computer nerd was using UNIX or something to turn on the system or something and there were folders she was going thru. ALL the ‘portals’ looked like those folders.

    2. Pulling that gun wasn’t revenge. It was extreme emotional deep seated psychological reaction that was heavily foreshadowed many times last season. Of course last season Dean kept the crazy to risking his own life. Tbis is the first time Dean has ever risked the lives og others. It is a big rainbow flag that screams mytharc for Dean and also Dean may get his win at great coast and then it all goes sideways.
      They have switched the brothers roles completely from the first great mytharc. We are so getting Dean!Michael. A pivotal point.

      Dean’s modus operandi has never been revenge. He doesn’t hunt for revenge however he has been driven to revenge. Season 1… brutal torture of Meg. Season 2… revenge for what demons did to his family. Season 5 killing of zachariah. Season 6… he wanted revenge against Grandpa Shady and Crowley. And he brutally tortured demons. Season 7 revenge for Cas and
      Bobby. Season 8, closing he’ll was a big fuck you go Crowley. Lots of passive ggressive vuts to Sam Season 9… revenge against Gadreel. Season 10 lots of sticking the knife in verbally to Sam as revenge for Sam being a self righteous ass. Revenge against the Steins. … i am tired of pointing out the examples of Dean wanting revenge. It jys t different than Sam who used revenge as everything without morality.

      1. I never saw Dean motivated by ‘revenge’ per se in most of your examples. For me, it was ‘getting the job done.’ Except for Dick Roman.

        I thought Dean taking down the entire US Steyn family was Mark of Cain Dean. So yeah, ‘revenge’ but OOC due to the Mark of Cain bit. I wish he had had the First Blade when he went to Shreveport. That would’ve been messy and GLORIOUS.

        Is it Stein or Steyn? (Just like I just asked if it was Alix or Alex)

        1. Dean is not motivated by revenge. His motivation is to save lives. Sometimes circumstances may him want revenge against a specific enemy.

          1. I did notice that Dean had his finger on the trigger instead of lying up along side it. He meant business and he was pissed at Kaia (and the situation). Good for him. Myself? I probably would have shot her… 😉

            Sam would’ve been all “Damn AlyCat! Way to ruin our chance at getting mom out! It’s not like Spirit Walkers grow on trees you know…” and I woulda been all “Shut up Sam or I’ll shoot you too!” 😉

          2. Not she he was kissed so much as he was f’ing desperate and going to save Mary no matter what. It is a state of mind we have never seen for Dean.
            Yes he always wants to save Sam too but never at the risk of others, of innocents.
            I was pretty freaked even as I got it because we had seen last season how Dean’s feelings about Mary, about losing Mary were through the roof.
            Aside from the fact that Mary seemed off when Jack was there. Imagine how angsty Dean would be when confronted with Mary!Bad!!Michael. And then Dean!Michael would want to save Mary but Michael!Dean would want to defeat the usurper to his world. And he’s crazy now too.
            Also Mary stepped into Sam’s mytharc role last season complete with running away and working with the bad guys, Blol in lieu of demons, and being the focus of Dean’s protectiveness.
            Ergo the new Winchester Apocalypse involves Mary and Dean.

            1. I think Billie was talking about more than this season. Dean wants to believe that he doesn’t matter because he perceives an early, violent death as an eventual out for him. Throw him into the Empty? Fine. At least he’ll be at peace. He’s not dealing with the prospect of being effectively immortal due to being a universal archetype and linchpin very well.

          3. Hmmmm. Dean has acknowledged that the world is his responsibility. And yeah Billie’s admittance that her thoughts have changed because she sees the big picture probably references Firewall!Dean.
            That said the fact that she talked about the alternative universe and then says that Dean is too important in the same paragraph telegraph to me that Dean is very important to saving the world from evil Michael and she needs him to have his head in the game. For all we know Billie or Chuck facikitated cas to reaposar for dean to get the little win to keep Dean going until shot hits fan and his sense of guilt over opening the rift kicks in driving him to fix the problem by saying yes to Michael.
            This exchange absolutely confirmed for me that Dean!Michael vs Bad!Michael will happen.
            I just cannot believe how well Dabbler and hacks have set this up. It makes me suspect they are working from an outline by carved.
            I hope hope hope Dabbler goes with nep duo to the spin-off and carver comes back.
            I want carver overseeing Dean!Michael. I want really good writing for that.
            I saw some of season 6 last week. I like most of the episodes and Dean as Death, Dean as vampire and Dean as slayer of eve are absolutely awesome. I even like her idea of using film noir tropes with Dean as the beleaguered and betrayed Philip Marlowe of the Big Sleep. I hate The unforgiven and the man who knew too much. And season 7 was pretty bad.

      2. The only way we get Michael!Dean is if AU!Michael comes here to conquer ‘our’ world and the only being left to fight him is Michael.

        At least that is the only reason I have thought of for Dean ‘ever’ saying YES. And even then he would want the Angel-Removing Egg in Sam’s possession to kick Michael out if he ‘submerged’ Dean’s personality/will.

        Plus AU!Michael tortured his mama. My husband reminded me of Dean in My Brother’s Keeper when Crowley said, don’t worry about Sam. and Dean responded, Have you MET ME? Oh yeah, AU!Michael would be going DOWN.

        1. I’d like to see something like having the alt-angels invade at the end of the season and alt-Michael threatening Sam and Lucifer. Then alt-Michael gets smashed aside by something blurry and fiery just as he’s about to kill them. When he comes roaring back, he finds someone standing between him and Sam and Lucifer. It’s Dean and he says, “Get away from my brothers, you son of a bitch.” Credits until the fall.

          1. No, not Sam and Lucifer: Sam and CASTIEL. I do not want even a MINOR Lucifer-redemption story. The only thing I will accept (well, you know, what I want strongly) is Lucifer dying to protect Jack. Other than that, throw him into the industrial waste with Lady Toni and Ketch.

            Other than that, yeah, because we are getting spoiled about Rowena and SHE is the only one who can open the Cage.

            1. I don’t think Dean gives two hoots about Lucifer, but Michael probably would about Lucifer, which would be the hint Dean had said yes to an archangel. But it’s possible Castiel would work, too. Especially if Dean said “baby brothers.”

          2. If the rift is locked onto land of the lost…. which I think might be the case since presumably Kaia lost her lock as Jack transported causing the Winchesters to land in the bad place not apocalypse now…then a full on angel assault is not likely.
            I am leaning towards bad Michael riding Mary over with Jack.
            Michael would have felt Jack looking and his focus on Mary. Perhaps the reason why she was being tortured later in Jack’s vision.
            I think Mary was off when she looked at Jack. There was a hardness in her eyes and she didn’t look human.
            Just a thought

          1. Getting back to Paula’s reminder a few weeks ago about the archangel-vessel-needs-to-be-the-right-bloodline, I thought the show already made it obvious that it was JOHN’s line which was an Archangel Vessel.

            I know it is grotty, but if Michael is the last Archangel is AU!Earth, maybe he is using one of Raphael’s vessels. I mean there is a ‘true’ vessel and then there is a workaround (like Adam); still powerful but not as ‘right.’

            1. Both John and Mary’s lines were archangel lines. Mary’s was for Lucifer, John’s for Michael.

              I suppose…it’s possible that alt-Michael is using a Raphael vessel. That’s a good idea, actually. Not sure the writers actually went there, but it’s possible.

              I’ve been thinking for a while they needed to bring back “our” Michael so he could go back to Heaven, jumpstart it, and get some new angels going. But it’s also possible the show will go with introducing a number of alt-SPN-verse angels who can still fly and are creepy. Not that alt-SPN-verse makes much sense, really.

          2. They reminded us of dean’s special blood and righteous man backstory plus Billie pretty much said no one else but Dean was needed to fix the AU Apocalypse problem.
            Dean!Michael is guaranteed.

            I have a wee feeling AU Michael is in Mary now. The way she looked at jack was hard and emotionless.

          3. They have the Holy Egg of Angel Dispossession so AU!Michael in Mary could be ‘fixed’ quite easily imo. So I think AU!Michael in his current vessel would be a much better ‘fight’ than Michael in Mary. I am one who finds all of Mary’s ‘superior’ skills to be sub-par. Anybody here remember Cathy Long? An actual martial-arts person who was also a cute blond. ANYWAY, when she put down great big guys I ‘believed’ it was real. SHE had the moves.

            Mary does not give me ‘martial arts expertise’ vibes and that bugs me.

            All of Ketch pimping her did NOT impress me. Dean said “Mom had some MOVES” but I totally did not believe she could’ve put him down in a fight if he was not stopping himself from hurting her.

            1. Hey Eva, I got the check today (loved the Christmas card, too!). Amazon messed up and I won’t be getting the proof copy before Tuesday, but as soon as I get it and do the corrections, I’ll order your copy.

          4. Alt Superverses make no sense although butterfly effect I guess. One small change has big consequences.

            Alternate universes are another superhero trope.

  11. I really shouldn’t be commenting, since I have yet to actually watch the episode, but your commentary brings up an issue I find really irritating, that comes up frequently in fiction, televised or otherwise. That is, giving a character angstiest angst filled back story, and then using that to excuse selfish or bad behavior. I’m not talking about outrage in a character who has been legitimitely wronged, even if it spills into violence. Nor do I mean a character who is genuinely troubled due to an unhappy background. I mean selfishness and lack of consideration for others. For some reason the audience is often supposed to take this as evidence that the character is “feisty” or “strong”. Well, feistiness is a neutral quality that has more to do with personality. And I think of strength as overcoming your difficult history, and still going on to do right by others. (Kind of like Dean.) Lots of people have difficult histories, but manage to be good people. Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to rant. Now I’ll go watch the episode.

    1. Yeah, having a character be angsty doesn’t let the writer off the hook making them watchable. Dean gets pretty dark and hostile, but fans love him for a reason. I don’t get why this show keeps making the same mistake over and over again, especially with young characters and *especially* with women. Kaia may turn out okay if she doesn’t backtrack on her last-minute development in the episode’s climax, but it sure was a slog getting to that point.

      I also really don’t like giving characters superpowers that are so strong they interfere with good drama and story tension, then have to dial them back. That’s Jack and Kaia (and probably Patience) in a nutshell. These characters are their powers so far, which ain’t good, and it’s very unfortunate that two of them are the only Women of Color in the cast.

      The Native American “dreamwalker” element also came across as very twee and stereotypical. I liked Sarge. Sarge was obviously Native American (so was his nephew) and obviously Old West, but nobody came out and banged it home for us in some mystical, faintly offensive stereotype.

      1. While ripping off the feet in the water Constantine way to travel. Course he had to die so not completely blatant.. I wonder if there would be some form of jet lag from inter dimensional travel…

        Sam: “What’s going on with you? Ever since we ended up here in the Bad Place you’ve been acting off…”

        Dean: “I dunno. Besides this fatigue and insomnia I’m anxious, confused and irritable. I’ve got a headache that won’t go away and I’m having difficulty concentrating…”

        Sam: “So, your usual?”

        Dean: “Yeah, well I don’t always have a headache…”

        Sam: *Shakes his head in amusement*. “I know what’s wrong! You have “Interdimensional Jet Lag”!

        Dean: “That’s a thing? Then why don’t you have it?”

        Sam: “Demon blood? All those years in the cage?”

        Dean: “Nah. It’s your hair. It created some sort of force field buffer thing!”

        Sam: “Like I said. Your suffering from jet lag. Obviously…”

        1. Lol. I have missed thee friend.
          The Constantine steal was weird and OBVIOUS… AND so not Native American in the least. No sacred amulets, sacred rocks, sacred spot. At least they took Kaia to the sacred boat and she was afraid to go there because of it’s power.

          1. And I You! And what was so sacred about the boat anyway? At first I thought it was just somewhere they ended up after trying to escape. Weren’t they trying to get to some Wall Of Wind or something?I have only watched it once so I’m probably misremembering. (Is that even a word?).

            I know you are convinced that it’s going to be a Dean/Michael redux but the way they have treated Deans storylines all these years? I don’t see it happening. If anything they will turn it over to Sam. And it will be the biggest and the worstest battle of all time. And if there is any mention of Dean being the true vessel it will be fleeting and quickly forgotten because – Oh my God, Sam! Just like Hell. As in how Deans 40 years and time under Alastair’s tutelage paled in comparison to Sams gajillion years in the cage with Lucifer. I’d love to see it happen – especially because Jensen would completely rock it and should never have been denied the first time – but I’d put good money on it never happening. Sadly. And – wait for it – I’m anticipating a scene where Sam, after single handedly defeating the big bad thing that is coming through, will through pure strength of will (and dormant demon blood) will pull the rip in the alt world together effectively sealing the torn seam. Like he held the doors open for the fleeing concert crowd against Lucifer’s power. I knew that was a foreshadow of something! ;). ⚡️ #Rock God

        2. But they already ripped off Castiel’s whole ‘look’ from Constantine. The thing with the feet in water always makes me laugh because I always think “hope so-and-so went potty first.’

          Is anybody else old enough to remember when people used to fill a ‘foot-bath’ with SUPER hot water and just sit there to relax after a hard day (and calm their aching tootsies)? My parents used to do that.

        3. You know what else I was convinced about.
          That Amara was not a big bad and instead she was a misunderstood woman with a legitimate grievance who would blow off steam, bond with Dean, learn about humanity, lose it because Chuck wouldn’t listen or apologize, lose it some more when Chuck finally did apologize because it was too little too late and finally backed off after a pretty speech from Dean in a garden.
          Almost everyone made fun of me. Not you or Snow… some people were nasty.
          And when it all came to pass not one of the naysayers apologized. Instead they said it made no sense because Sam didn’t get the big kill they wanted.
          Yes. Sometimes I fall into the trap of seeing what I want for Dean but I have been screaming new different Apocalypse since 12:1 and we have a new different Apocalypse. They hit the anvil for Mary!Lucifer so hard that more than a few people commented. I am starting to think it will be Mary!AU-michael who is worse than our spoiled teenaged Lucifer by a long shot.
          If the rift is open to dino world then Jack is Michael’s only way out and using Mary is the logical choice.

        1. She can. I just don’t like that the show basically gave her the Speshul Psykid intro a la the first two seasons. Even Kripke was smart enough not to have Sam be the most powerful Psykid we ever met.

          1. Alycat…
            Sam has been rotated into caretaker more.
            Billie tells Dean he has work to do.
            Sam has been babysitting. Dean has been dealing with the supernatural threat
            On imbd all last season I said we were heading towards an Apocalypse . There is a f’ing Apocalypse. I said Dean would do crazy stuff to save Mary. Dean is gonzo crazy to save Mary. I said Sam was the human brother. He is more of a babysitter thasn Dean. I said luci was not in the cage and he was not in the cage.

      2. I liked Sarge too.
        I think the actor for Jack is doing a great job which goes a long way towards making him work despite the writing.
        They can’t kill him per se. Maybe they will use his grace to close the rift. Of course Michael’s lance might kill him. There was a lot of lance in the promo. One assumes AU Michael ‘s lance but maybe Dean!Michael fixes his.

  12. I thought it was unnecessary to toss Dean and sam into Jurassic whatever world. It is convenient that Kaia is where Jack can find her so he can rescue the brothers.
    Eh. I liked Kaia more than patience. She is scared of a power that she cannot control. These young women are all Jack mirrors. It sucks that Dean has to be written dumb to make them shine.

    Dean pulling a gun on her represents his crazy need to save Mary which we saw all last season. Still he pulled a gun on an innocent and forced them to do something dangerous for his own personal interest. New territory for the character albeit understandable considering the emotions he has surrounding his loss of her at 4.

    It’s heading towards a real clusterfuck.

    I thought it was one of the stronger episodes this season…not saying much. Jack has really grown into himself.

    1. It sounds like we all agree that having the Wayward Sisters rescue Sam and Dean would not go down well with the fandom at all.

    2. ‘WAY back in Season 1 Kripke promised us we’d find out Dean’s Secret (which was alluded to in Bloody Mary); alas another dropped Dean-plot.

      From watching Dean that season (it has informed everything I ever think of about the character in the show) I came to believe Dean’s Secret was that like Mary, he heard a noise and went to Sam’s bedroom. He saw The Man there and got scared and ran away and hid, did not say Bad Man in Sammy’s Room. And blamed himself ever since.

      (Now if he HAD yelled or something YED would’ve killed him then and there so it had to play out the way it played out BUT Dean always believed that everything was HIS FAULT.

      For me, ‘that’ is the source of Dean’s ‘self-loathing’ and a secret so deep no demon trying to burrow into his mind ever found it. Not even Alastair. (And seeing Alastair/Mark Roylston today, I firmly believe there was a lot of freaky stuff going on in THAT corner of Hell.)

      1. Interesting idea that Dean witnessed the stranger in Sams room before everything went to Hell and not his mom burning on the ceiling. Or maybe both. And that he has buried it so deeply in his subconcious that he doesn’t remember (possibly suspects) and that those moments are what helped shape the man and his actions, indelibly etched into his psyche. *Wipes away her OPT*

        1. Pretty sure we had a flashback in the not to be mentioned by name episode about familiars where Dean sees Mary burning on the ceiling. If not in that episode it exists somewhere.

          1. Is this the episode that was called B********S and set in Chicago? You know I have never actually watched that episode? The first time it was on I got called by a pollster who kept me on the phone for an HOUR and it was on but it looked dreary and I never rewound.

            So if that line was said in THAT episode I will be stuck having to watch it. Of course the other episode I can’t bear to watch is the one with the lady-dog familiar and I cannot bear the idea I have to watch THAT one for dialog either.

            Just let me know. Please.

          2. CC, I don’t know if this is ‘attached’ to your post, but is the episode in which mention is made of Dean seeing Mary burning on the ceiling from Man’s Best Friend with Benefits or was it Bloodlines? I actually avoid both of those episodes so can’t remember any dialog.

            1. I think she means the flashback to Mary burning on the ceiling is in Dean’s mind when the witch goes after him in “Man’s Best Friend with Benefits.”

              Dean also tells the kid in “Dead in the Water” that he saw something really bad happen to his mother.

          3. Yes. Dean sees his mother burning on the ceiling when the witch tortures him in MBFWB. So it is canon that he saw it.
            I had forgotten about the earlier reference.

            It is obvious that Dean bears guilt for not saving Mary despite the fact that he was 4. He hunts to save families as recompense. Getting his mom back was his most desired wish and he went batshit crazy whenever she was in danger last season. She is the most important thing in the world to him and he will do anything to save her.

        2. He may just feel guilty that he couldn’t save her since he seems to feel that way chronically about everyone they can’t save. He certainly hunts to save people and prevent families from being destroyed like his was.
          Kripke originated lol canon by throwing around half baked ideas and discarding them without thought. The battle royal of the pair kids doesn’t make any sense… neither does the boy king concept… If the real goal was to release Lucifer. They were ideas to make super Sam super special
          He certainly was not interested in Dean as anything more than a cape holding neer- do- well sidekick who was less than super special Sam in every way. It was,Jebsen’s performance and Kim Manners that developed Dean info more

          In other words kripke didn’t care enough to create the backstory for this. Anyhow Dean’s fatal flaw is taking on too much guilt and blaming himself for everything and that in itself was enough to trigger Mary.

          1. Thank you, CC and Paula. For me the lady-dog episode is about the worst, WORSE than Bugs. And the fact that Dean was the ‘goat’ the whole episode was ugly. At least in Bloodlines (while S/D weren’t in it much) they were ‘respected’ if you know what I mean.

            On another site I follow they are now speculating if Gen will get a continual part next season (nobody seems to think the show is going away). I have no opinion. I would like her to play a sympathetic character, that’s for sure.

            1. Aside from how offensive they both were, the worst thing about “Man’s Best Friend” and “Bloodlines” is that they weren’t even Supernatural. Intentionally so. Dabb was talking in a recent interview (about the new spin-off) that he was trying for something different with “Bloodlines.” That raised an eyebrow with me. No, Andrew, honey, what you were trying to do was a The Originals set in the SPNverse. Of course that didn’t work. Sure, there are people who are fans of both shows, but that doesn’t mean they want to watch a bad combination of the two.

              I have some reservations about the spin-off – especially regarding giving super-speshul magic powers and sad backstories to the two new PoC characters instead of trying to write them with logical central character conflicts – but at least it fits in the SPNverse and doesn’t denigrate the Brothers’ role in it.

          2. Dabb is going for a superhero/ supernatural mash-up in the spin-off. Jack, Patience, Kaia are all based on superhero tropes. Jack works only because the actor brings it… and he dies the best angelic entity besides Castiel of course. Gadreel too. Matt Cohen’s Michael. He’ll even here’s Lucifer and death 1. They all covey otherness which most angel performances lack. Not that i don’t love Zachariah and fuller’s larger than life performance.
            Without an anchor like Jensen I don’t think wayward sisters will work.
            Jody and Donna are great and Claire is the best of the girls but based on what we have seen the writing will suck and none of them are Jensen who single handedly made Dean iconic in season 1 despite the writing.

            1. They’re trying to DC the show, just as they previously tried to TVD it, and Gossip Girl it before that, which pisses me off (especially since the female characters suffer the most from it because TV writers in general have no idea how the hell to write female characters). This show predates all of those other shows and, relatively speaking, does a hell of a lot better doing its own thing. The CW needs to diversify its brand, not narrow it by wrecking what already works on its schedule besides superhero shows.

          3. I became booked on Crazy Ex Girlfriend. Now that is diversifying.
            They should have picked up Constantine and steampunk Dracula.
            Dabbler and Hacks.
            Singer is the ultimate hack.

            1. While I find the songs on CEG catchy, I find the 90% of everything else on the show boring, depressing and misogynistic. I’m amazed that there are critics out there who think it’s remotely feminist. Hollywood cinema is rife with male protagonists who did exactly the same thing as Rebecca does in the pilot and were considered romantic heroes for wooing and winning back their reluctant love interests, instead of the creepy stalkers they’d actually be in real life. Meanwhile, traditionally, women are *always* considered sad and creepy if they pursue a guy at all in the way men pursue women, in fiction and in real life.

        3. You are right, in Dead in the Water he told Lucas that he saw something ‘real bad’ happen to his Mom. Now maybe he has heard the story from John so many times he imagines he saw it. In the show he was clearly out in the hall when John ran out with Sammy. But he could’ve ‘seen’ her on the ceiling, the fire breaking out, and backed away from the door and just stood there not knowing what to do.

          I just ‘believe’ that Dean since he was 4yo blames himself for not saving his Mom.

    3. So the newly added Waywards – they don’t just have their abilities, it’s a POWER. POWER, y’all. Not just a fledgling, fragile, here again and gone tomorrow. No. POWER. Sheesh. I knew they would do this. They are writing the characters individual gifts too strong. Where is the progression. The learning. The effort and the pain. You know – like Sam and Dean and their journey throughout the years. Becoming the respected hunters that they are. Nope. Instant Fab Four. Or Five. Or Seven if you count Jody and Donna. I’ve lost count. I hated the “Ooh I had a vision in excruciating detail and I will now change the outcome because of my sneak peak! Dean, look out! Sam, Duck! Jody he has a knife!” Or whatever. Bleh. I think I liked Sams visions because he sawbut couldn’t prevent – except for when Max was about to gun Dean down. But did Sam burst in and body slam him? No. Did he tell Dean to duck? No. He talked Max down. Unexpected and exciting.

      This gives me a glimpse (so that I Now know in excruciating detail what the spinoff will be and can pass on that information) into how the new show will go… Jody: “Women Power Baby! 24/7. We don’t need no men! We’re the new Amazons. Supernatural world, look out. Now Sam. Dean? Observe us because this is how it’s done! Oh and boys, there’s a sink full of dishes….were gonna go wipe out that pack of Chupacabras!” Dean: “She’s not pronouncing it correctly. It’s brah, with a chupa. Chupa, chupa-“. Sam: “Forget It Dean, they’ve already left!”

      I wonder if Mary would join Jody and Donna as one of the leaders of WS.

      1. To your last sentence: we should be so lucky.

        I have been thinking and I think ONE thing I am going to like about WS is that none of the young ladies are the ‘overly’ beautiful people usually cast on the CW. I think they are all ‘attractive’ but nobody looks like they are fashion-model material either. (I find Alix the ‘prettiest’ and Claire and Patience ‘good’ and Kaia just ‘normal.’ I am not dissing anybody’s looks, I think “Kaia” is the best actress in the bunch so far.) Jody is a woman mid-to-late 40s and Donna is a cutie-pie that is not the stick-thin type the CW hires. This is a cast that looks like real people.

        Actually, I would like to have at least ONE FULL episode of the guys fighting in Big Foot-World; I expect Jack will get Mary out on his own (NONONO I want her sons to save her) and they will get together with the WS crew and ‘save’ Sam and Dean. IF I am going to get stuck with Sam and Dean being ‘saved’ by the new crew I want to see them doing a repeat of Dean-Benny and watch them kill everything they run into.

        1. Weird. I think Kaia is stunning. Alex meh. Claire cute with loads of spunk and Patience a classic beauty.
          Hopefully this is just their introduction episodes. They are using classic superhero tropes. None are as powerful as Jack.
          Missouri waa extremely powerful however she was subtle in how she used that power.
          I do hope that the writing improves.
          At least I like Claire a bunch. Kaia’s powers are all over the place. She can learn to master them and spirit waking will not solve every case. Her wacky powers lead to t he brothers being dumped somewhere else. So she’s not the universal tool Patience is
          I don’t like Alex but at least her nurse skills will cvome in handy.
          Patience is the problem. Her visions come all of the time for no reason. Missouri had to work it.

          Jody and Donna are great.

          1. It is always interesting to me how some people find other people attractive. I don’t find Patience a classic beauty, I ‘do’ find her good-looking though. It just takes me ‘out’ of all her scenes because to ME she sure as hell looks like she is at LEAST grad-school level age.

            I ‘like’ Claire as a Dean-template. She is irritable, angry a lot, and unstoppable when she gets something in her head.

            I never thought Missouri was all that ‘good’ at being a psychic. Practically ‘everything’ she did in Home was just plain wrong.

            I see Patience as actually a stronger psychic. I thought Kaia and her arc were GOOD. I understand her fears about her power, if I had dreams and in the dreams I was attacked and those woke UP bleeding I also would not want to sleep.

            I don’t know what they can do with Alix (and is it Alix or Alex? I always thought it was Alix but lord knows I am wrong about enough stuff to be wrong about ‘that’) except give good advice on how monsters feel about things. She really is (for me) the archetypal ‘nice girl.’

          2. Claire as a Dean template minus all the chemistry, nuance, layers or Jensen’s acting ability. She was less irritating in her last appearance but I still don’t care for her.

            And YES! Casting her as someone that young? Fail.
            It takes me out of the scenes as well. The fact that her makeup is spot on perfect does too. I’m not sure why?

            1. I think Claire works okay at this point because her anger makes sense for her life experience so far, as does her hero worship of Dean. Claire feels like a hot, unstable mess, but Dean is an example for her of someone even angrier and more unstable than she is who has a code that makes him a Hero instead of a Villain.

              I really wish Jody would just spell that out for Dean instead of beating around the bush and hinting at it. He’d get it if she put it that way.

        2. The Missouri episode this season indicated that she not only saw the future she was able to gauge how her attempts to change it would affect the outcome. She knew she had to die because she needed Dean to leave and save Patience.
          In her first appearance it seemed obvious to me that she knew things but kept silent because the information wouldn’t help the brothers or change the outcome in their favor. Honestly I don’t know how I would react to two guys who I knew would affect the world on a cosmic life/death level. Even if kripke hadn’t worked out exactly how special Sam would go dark he knew he would and it would be important
          The only thing I objected to was how she treated Dean but after her appearance this season I got the impression that she thought Dean needed strong mothering.

      2. The show has said that the backdoor pilot will make it obvious why the spin-off is set in one place. I have a feeling they’ve already let that cat out of the bag – the rip they left behind will need to be guarded and all sorts of weird things could come through.

          1. Aw, come on. It may not be a Hellmouth per se; after all Samuel Colt locked HIS down.

            It may just be a portal to monster universes (or The Bad Place on its own) which works better for me.

        1. Plus if it were an on the road show like Sam and Dean in the Impala it wouldn’t work. There’s too many of them. They would end up having to use a Patridge Family style van*. So not sexy. Ha.

          (Shoutout to honor David’s passing.


        2. Yeah. I think Claire works too. She has a right to be an angry young woman and a right to be a hunter. They have written her as street savvy, reckless, having good instincts, flawed and Dean adherent. For me it is a winning combination that makes me like her more than Charlie and Patience.
          I like Kaia too. I put myself in her shoes and i would not have wanted to go with Jack or the Winchesters either.
          Patience is too much a special snowflake high school good girl trope.
          Yes Alex has a compelling backstory but they do nothing with it and the actress is mediocre. At least she wNts,to help people by becoming a nurse.

          1. What I don’t like about Kaia is that she’s decidedly un-heroic. Unlike Claire, Jody, Donna and (to a more reluctant extent) Alex, she has zero interest in The Family Business. Patience at least wants to help others. Kaia just feels sorry for herself. A lot. It doesn’t fit with the ethos of the show, which is Saving People and Hunting Things. If a main character doesn’t align with that ethos right off, then GTFO.

            She and Patience also suffer from being Psykids – their stories aren’t about being traumatized by the supernatural world (as Jody, Donna, Claire and Alex were), but by struggling with their Super-Speshul Powers. I wasn’t fond of the Psykids storyline and found it very shallow, so not thrilled to see both of the WoC characters going down that route.

            I also don’t like that Kaia was basically handed something unique to Dean (that he walks between worlds) without the writers’ understanding why that worked for Dean and not for other characters (like Sam). Dean doesn’t just travel between worlds. He *transforms* them as he goes, for good and ill. It’s defensive for the most part, but still, he leaves a huge bootprint. The SPNverse is a very different place than it was 13 years ago, largely due to Dean Winchester and his rambling. I don’t like seeing that cheapened to give a whiny new character a stereotypically “ethnic” power set that will certainly have to be dialed back down to accommodate a weekly format, anyway.

          2. My question regarding Kaia is how is she the Best Ever spirit walker, when she can only go to one place, and Derek could go to many. Even with raw talent, Derek clearly had the edge on training, and experience. Doesn’t that make him the best? Not even getting to Dean of course.

            I don’t entirely agree with you on the actress for Alex. They just haven’t given her that much to work with yet. As the character on the slowest burn getting into hunting, she has the most room for character growth, and I hope they do something with that. She is less volatile than Claire or Kaia, and less privileged than Patience, and the emotional stamina she would need to develop to be successful at nursing could serve her very well.

            1. Simple answer? Lazy writing. In the basics, Kaia and Patience have identical origin stories – they are both WoC psychic prodigies who are introduced through the fridging of an older, wiser PoC character.

              Alex wanted to help people, so she decided to study to become a nurse. So far, we’ve seen Kaia do precisely one thing to help others and it was a last-minute about-face that involved saving her own hide as much as helping others. Personally, I consider it a big step in the right direction but largely because she started so far behind the eight ball, as it was.

        3. If they really wanted these girls and the soin-off to have a chance they should have canbed the superhero origin stories and had them start off as pip. Have them either stay at the bunker and be trained like Kevin and Jack or in patience’s case have her show up because of a vision that they are in but are not helpless without her.
          Have Dean be a mentor and Sam be sympathetic.

          DEAN dream walks in people’s heads.
          I have no problem with Native American’s having a different kind if dream walk because of vision quests and spirit walks being a part of some cultures.
          I object to tbis interdimensional travel. The only way it would have made sense is for Jack to have twisted the power for his use. It doesn’t make sense for a Native American to visit an alternative Christian apocalypse or a dino world.
          Maybe if native American dieties existed in another dimension…
          Dabbler and hacks suck at logical world building.

          1. I have no objection to other characters dreamwalking. I do have an objection to the writers acting as though it’s never been done before, that neither of the main characters is proficient at it, and that Dean wasn’t doing it just a few episodes before Kaia was introduced. The impressiveness of what Kaia does is seriously undercut by the fact that Dean was gossiping with *Death* just a few episodes ago.

            I also would really rather they not bad-touch Native American traditions any further than they already have in the past (remember the Mayan god ep?). Native Americans have every bit as wide a range of religions as any other part of the world. Some are strictly shamanistic, some are polytheistic, and some are even monotheistic. Let’s stick to the last one and not go insulting Native American religion all over the place.

        4. My guess is that Lucifer will tell Jack they can close it with Jack ‘s grace then steal it for himself.
          Yes he will help take out bad Michael but I don’t see him changing personality because he is a dad.

      3. Well I finally have two new diagnoses that with the chronic EBV/mono explain why i have been so sick..
        I have Specific Antibody Deficiency. I am lousy at producing polysaccharide coated antibodies which leaves me defenseless against bacterial infections. Explains my propensity for running 106 temperatures. I am lucky to be akive and I gave probably been sick much mono and a low grade infection every day for the last 12 years.
        I was given pneumovax which should have triggered the production of 23 antibodies. I produced 3.
        My gamma Globulin levels are borderline low but not low enough to be diagnosed with Common Variable Immune Deficiency.
        I also seem to have Mast Cell Activation Syndrome which means my mast cells are hypersensitive and over-reactive causing a bewildering array of body wide symptoms.
        The good news is that both can be treated.
        I am hoping that once I begin treafment the chronic mono will go into remission and maybe I will phase out of chronic fatigue syndrome.
        Simply going off of wheat, gluten and corn has improved my life immensely. I think k the damage to my thyroid is reversing.

        I am hoping to be a real girl next year.

        1. Oh, wow. That’s a lot to deal with, especially for so long. I’m glad they can treat this, and I hope you start feeling better soon.

        2. I am so sorry.

          My little ‘sort of’ (but boy is YOURS worse) story: for years I have had trouble breathing, got asthma, constant infections (one year I had pneumonia THREE times). I always felt something was ‘technically’ wrong with my breathing apparatus. Had ANOTHER cold and went for a tooth cleaning. My clinician said, go to the doctor. I went to urgent care, meds did not work (felt I was not ‘listened to’ and I am SURE you had that over the years), went to my regular asthma guy: he looked up my nose and discovered a HUGE growth, it filled the whole sinus. Took about 2mos and had surgery and it is so much better. But the punch-line is NOW I have bad asthma and all sorts of stuff going on because I had an infection, like you, for about a decade. Never getting those years back and never will be well again. BUT I am better and I know that hope can really help a lot. AND getting the right treatment and the right meds.

          Boy, you have a mouthful of conditions. Let us know how this is all working out. It may take a bit of tweaking to have all the meds work ‘right’ for you.

          What kind of doctor handles your type of symptoms? Sounds like some kind of specialized treatment.

          1. I have asthma too and I had growths filling up every sinus from the constant infections. Surgery helped me too. I had a good GP that diagnosed the chronic EBV/mono and the subacute tbyroiditis/hyperthyroidism and the chronic sinusitus and the chronnic malnutrition and the cellulitis infections every time a bug bit me.
            However she thought the diagnoses I had were enough. She helped me but she got into the rut of thinking every symptom was from that cluster of stuff.
            In the meantime I developed fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, IBS, IC and metabolic syndrome… All overnight. It wa s like my body fell apart in every system.
            I was convinced there was a root cause. I switched doctors last year because I wanted fresh eyes.
            And I have a good ENT, an immigrant who is the best. I had a sinus infection for 4 months last year which required 3 cvourses of antibiotics to clear. He said my insides were still beautiful from my 3 hour sinus surgery and septoplasty. So he sent me to an allergist/immunologist who said all of my symptoms could be from a mast cell disorder and he tested my immune function.
            12 years sick and this guy changed my life.
            The mast cell thing is a new class of diseases. I don’t have mastocytosis which is a clear cut diagnosis and very serious.
            It is harder to diagnosis mast cell activation syndrome. I have all if the full body symptoms which can be triggered by food, venomous creatures, sun, hear, gold, physical trauma, emotional stress, exercise, strong smells, etc. Many of these things triggered me. However i improved dramatically but cutging out wheat, gluten and corn which I was obviously reacting to. Once I was off of those I became less sensitive to other things and the IBS, reynaud’s syndrome and IC disappeared. So did the brain for that bordered on dementia at times.
            Despite not having allergies he put me on antihistamines and that helped. And I take an anti inflammatory that works on the respiratory tract. He will probably put me on more stuff. We are re-running labs.
            I ate pecan pie at Thanksgiving and started reacting plus very asthmatic for weeks. NO MORE WHEAT, GLUTEN OR CORN.
            It’s weird because mast cells mediate allergic reactions. I am so non-allergic that I don’t react to poison ivy, oak or sumac. Yet my mast cells are sensitive and part of my issue the last 12 years is that they became hypersensitive.
            Literally I am the princess with the pea. I had to get silk pillowcases and rethink my wardrobe because my skin was so sensitive.

        3. Tests came back and I definitely have a mast cell issue. Cannot start immune globulin therapy until I am treated for next cell issues for at least a month. I could react to it and any time I react I could end up with anaphylaxis.

          1. HOLY SHIT!

            Please keep telling us your progress here.
            Now I am going to worry about YOU (to give you an example, I spend every f-ing episode worrying about Baby Judith on The Walking Dead, I mean sometimes I feel paralyzed to watch because, HELLO, it’s Baby Judith) so please take it easy. The idea you could go into anaphylactic shock at any moment is terrifying. (I am sure for you as well.)

          2. It is good I am getting diagnosed. i will carry an epic pen. Anyhow i have not died from previous anaphylaxis… which I did not realize was anaphylaxis. I just paid there red and puffy with low blood pressure too weak to move. Being in the sun used to do that to me.

            As I said avoiding known triggers has helped. And now I will take 2 different antihistamines and a third whenever I have medical procedures, 2 meds to stop the mast cells from degranulating and releasing chemicals that harm me and try to adhere to a low histamine diet in addition to avoiding known triggers if possible.

            I will be awesome.

            I always worry about the pets.

          3. Well here is an interesting twist. I just got a letter telling me to repeat the Pneumovax because it might not have been stored properly. Which means I have to repeat the antibody test.
            There’s a chance then that maybe I produced no antibodies because the vaccine was dead

    1. It’s the same address. On Amazon, it’s $14.99 for the book plus $2.99 shipping and handling, so $18.00 (or $17.98, if you want to be precise). Do you want it signed?

      1. Oh yes, please. I will puff myself up with PRIDE to know an actual Author. Shall I address you as Author Stiles from now on?

        Oh did you see the Templar show? All the reviews were brutal even though it appeared the cast was OK. I ended up deleting it unwatched. I wanted to see them at their founding and in their floruit, I did not want to start at the end and get to see Jacques de Mollay calling down vengeance on both the Pope and Phillip the Fair. I guess that is cowardly, but I would’ve wanted to see their founding and maybe their archaeology and maybe their travels.

        1. Heh. That’s up to you.

          Yeah, I’d prefer they do something besides the Trial and its mythical aftermath, too, but people rarely want to write about that. It’s not as much fun.

          I haven’t seen it. I don’t get the History Channel. Variety said it was pretty dopey.

            1. Thank you! The galley hasn’t arrived yet (supposedly tomorrow or Friday), but when it does, I’ll make any corrections right off and set up another order for your copy.

  13. I thought this was a Bobo Behrens script? Or was the reference to how much shifty stuff in a B/L script?

    Could you give me info on how to order your book? I ‘love’ your recap/reviews from the previous site.

    1. You’re right. It is, which just makes it that much more embarrassing (at least the Nep Duo are unabashedly clueless). Does this guy do no research, ever?

      Well, there are links to the Amazon ordering pages at the top of the thread. Do you need an offline way to do it? You could always send me a check and I could send you a print copy once I get the galley proof and work things out with the cover.

      1. Berens was golden under Carver. Not one bad episode.
        He’s a mixed bag under Dabb. This fact and Reichenbach tells me that Carver did extensive work on all scripts.

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