Whispers, Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 07/24/17: The San Diego Comic-Con Edition

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Sci-fi Spoilerpalooza
By Heather S. Vina

San Diego Comic-Con was this weekend. As usual, there are a LOT of news and spoilers out! Too much for me to gather everything, but hopefully, I hit the highlights for the genre shows!

You can check out YouTube for different highlights from different panels, including some panels in their entirety. A good place to start for highlights is the Flick and the City channel. Spoiler TV also has a page on their website for panel links. They gradually collect them all and add them to the page as they go, so check them out as well!

Several shows had some big news this weekend: Wynonna Earp has been renewed for a third season. Iron Fist has been renewed for season two. The Originals will be ending this season.

The 100: The Comic-Con panel showed a sizzle reel for the show. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast. TV Line has up some highlights from the show’s panel.

12 Monkeys: The show released a new trailer for their fourth and final season.

American Horror Story: Ryan Murphy revealed another clue for the new season on his Instagram. The show also has a premiere date: Tuesday, September 5.

Arrow: There’s a new trailer out for season six. TV Line has up some spoilers from the panel. The show also announced that actor Michael Emerson (Person of Interest) was joining the show in a recurring, mysterious role.

Black Lightning: There’s a new trailer out for the new superhero show. The show has added actors James Remar ( Dexter) and Damon Gupton (Bates Motel) to the show as series regulars. Remar will play Peter Gambi, the oldest friend of Jefferson Pierce/Black Lightning and Gupton will play seasoned lawman Inspector Henderson.

Colony: TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

The Defenders: There’s a new trailer out for the show. Deadline has up some details from the show’s Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Dirk Gently: Syfy has up an interview with the cast on season two. There’s a sneak peek for season two on the show’s official Twitter account.

Doctor Who: The trailer is out for the Christmas special, “Twice Upon A Time.” Spoiler TV will have up the full panel of the gang at Comic-Con soon, but if you want to just see Peter’s ‘thank you’ speech, you can see it on Flicks and the City‘s YouTube channel. IMDb has up an interview with Peter on the best time to leave the show. EW has up the advice Peter gave to new Doctor Jodie Whittaker. Pearl and Michelle spoke with TV Line about their characters’ potential returns. Syfy has up a video interview with the ladies, too, as well Yahoo. EW has up the second official photo for the Christmas episode with Peter Capaldi and David Bradley. Steven Moffat spoke out against the idea of a backlash against a female Doctor.

The Exorcist: The show has added to its second season cast actress Zuleikha Robinson (Still Star-Crossed).

The Expanse: There’s a new trailer out for season three. The show has adde actress Elizabeth Mitchell (Lost) to the cast for season three.

Fear the Walking Dead: Deadline has up some highlights from the show’s Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

The Flash: There’s a new trailer out for season four. The show also announced some casting news. Actor Neil Sandilands (The 100, The Americans) has been cast as villain Clifford Devoe, AKA The Thinker. Danny Trejo (Machete, From Dusk Till Dawn) has been cast as Breacher, a feared bounty hunter from Earth-19 and the father of Gypsy. Kim Engelbrecht (Dominion, Eye in the Sky) has been cast as The Mechanic, a highly intelligent engineer who works for Devoe and is devoted to his cause. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Game of Thrones: Deadline has up some highlights from the show’s Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up some video interviews with the cast on their favorite scenes. EW has up interviews with actress Jessica Henwick and actress Nathalie Emmanuel on this weekend’s episode.

The Gifted: There’s a new trailer out for the series. TV Addict has up interviews with the cast.

Gotham: There’s a new trailer out for season four. The show has cast actress Crystal Reed (Teen Wolf) as Sofia Falcone, the daughter of Don Falcone. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Inhumans: There’s a new trailer out for the show. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Ironfist: Along with the renewal news, the show is also getting a new showrunner in Raven Metzner.

iZombie: The show has upped Robert Knepper from recurring to series regular for season four. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Legends of Tomorrow: There’s a new trailer out for season three. It was announced that actor Neal McDonough (Damien Darhk) has been promoted to series regular, while Arthur Darvill (Rip Hunter) and Wentworth Miller (Captain Cold) will be back in recurring status. TV Line has up some highlights from the panel.

Legion: EW has up the first page of the scriptfor season two’s opening episode. Deadline has up some highlights from the Comic-Con panel. Actor Saïd Taghmaoui (Wonder Woman) has been cast as Amahl Farouk AKA the Shadow King. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Lucifer: There’s a new trailer out for season three. It was announced that actor Tom Welling (Smallville) would be joining the show as a rival for Lucifer.

Midnight, Texas: Deadline has up some highlights from the show’s Comic-Con panel.

Once Upon A Time: There’s a new trailer out for season seven. Deadline has up some details on the show’s Comic-Con panel, as well as the scene that they debuted there. TV Line has up their own set of highlights. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

The Originals: At Comic-Con, the panel showed a sizzle reel for the show. The cast also spoke to TV Line about the coming season. The show has recast the character of Hope with 17-year-old actress Danielle Rose Russell (The Last Tycoon), officially making her a teenager in a 5-year jump when the show returns. You can catch a glimpse of her from a scene they released at their panel. The show is also promoting recurring actor Steven Krueger (Josh) to series regular in season five.

Outlander: There’s a new trailer out for season three. Deadline has up some highlights from the Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up some highlights, as well as a video interview with the cast.

Preacher: The show has a new trailer out for season two.

The Runaways: The first teaser has come out on the show’s official Twitter account.

Shadowhunters: TV Line has up a video interview with the cast. It was announced at the panel that actress Alisha Wainwright (Maia) has been promoted to series regular.

The Shannara Chronicles: Spoiler TV has up the first promotional art for season two.

Star Trek Discovery: There’s a new trailer out for the show. TV Line has up some spoilers and highlights from the show’s panel at Comic-Con, as well as a video interview with the cast. The official Star Trek YouTube channel has up a lot of interviews with the cast. The official site also has up some highlights from the panel, as well as photos. EW has up an interview with showrunner Aaron Harberts on the differences with the Klingons in this series compared to the others. Syfy has up some interviews on the show.

Stranger Things: There’s a new trailer out for season two. The cast spoke with TV Line about season two.

Supergirl: There’s a new trailer out for season three. TV Line has up an interview with the cast from Comic-Con. Some casting news was announced at Comic-Con. Actor Adrian Pasdar (Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D) has been cast as villain Morgan Edge, a charismatic capitalist. Carl Lumbly (Alias) has been cast as M’yrnn J’onzz, father of J’onn J’onnz. Yael Grobglas (Jane the Virgin) has been cast as Psi, a psychic villain who uses people’s own minds against them. Emma Tremblay (Elysium) has been cast as Ruby, a fan of Supergirl. Calista Flockhart is set to return in the season premiere, as well as on tap to be recurring for season three.

Teen Wolf: Deadline has up a few quotes from the show’s Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Timeless: The cast and crew spoke with TV Line at Comic-Con. Deadline has up some highlights from the show’s panel. TV Line has up some highlights from their panel as well.

The Walking Dead: EW has up a photo of Rick and Maggie, conspiring to overthrow Negan. After the tragedy of stuntman John Bernecker’s death during filming, the show pulled back from some of its Comic-Con festivities, but still did have their panel. Deadline has up some highlights from it.

Westworld: There’s a new trailer out for season two. The show has added to their cast actors Neil Jackson (Absentia) and Jonathan Tucker (Kingdom).

Supernatural (Thursday nights, 8pm, CW)
By Paula R. Stiles

Check out my Patreon page. Help me keep this column going, pay Heather, and start doing Supernatural reviews again.

Filming for season 13 has begun.

The show has switched its reruns to Wednesdays at 9pm (this week is “Family Feud”), but will still return to 8pm on Thursdays when the new season begins on October 12. Its lead-out will be Arrow. Thanks to Eva for the change in the reruns day.

Warner Bros has announced details about the upcoming Wayward Sisters spinoff. As we already know, it will star Kim Rhodes (Jody Mills) and the rumor that Briana Buckmaster (Donna Hanscum) is in it was confirmed. Also starring will be Kathryn Newton (Claire Novak) and Alex Jones (Katherine Ramdeen), as well as new character Patience Turner (played by Clark Backo).

Patience, the only character we haven’t met yet, is a high school nerd and the granddaughter of Missouri Moseley from season one (who, it was confirmed at the show’s Comic-Con panel will return, probably for the backdoor pilot in time to get killed off). Patience has inherited her estranged grandmother’s psychic gift. While I’ll readily admit to huge reservations about this writing team doing a premise like this right (especially an African American character like Patience after what they did to the Family Banes last season), I do like the cast. So, I’m pulling for this to be done right.

Expect some crossovers à la the superhero shows if the backdoor pilot this season is picked up to series.

So, let’s talk San Diego Comic-Con and that panel. The best I can say about the panel itself spoilers-wise is “Well, that happened.” There was no promo or gag reel, though the rock group Kansas did perform “Carry On, Wayward Son” live at the beginning, which was pretty cool. But musical stunts like that often are used to mask terrible storytelling.

Only the first half or so of the panel was devoted to spoilers and they were rather thin on the ground. The order in which the GoHs entered (after Kansas performed, and hosts Richard Speight Jr. and Rob Benedict came in) was rather interesting: Bob Singer and Jensen Ackles, then Jared Padalecki, then Andrew Dabb, and then, after a few minutes, Misha Collins. Very different from last season, when it was Singer, Dabb, Padalecki, Ackles, Collins, Mark Sheppard and Samantha Smith. Also, Dabb didn’t talk much this time round. Singer did most of the showrunner talking.

You can catch vids of Kansas and the three-screen room here, here and here.

Regarding spoilers:

Castiel is really dead (“more dead than usual“), but that won’t stick. In a recent Chicon panel, Ackles discussed a scene they were filming on July 14 in which Ackles played a prank on Collins while Collins was trying to play dead and Ackles was miming Dean checking for signs of life. The show wouldn’t have had Collins in that scene if Castiel were dead and not coming back (remember how in “Sympathy for the Devil,” the season five premiere, the Brothers were stuck in the room with Lucifer, but the dead bodies of Lilith and Ruby were nowhere to be seen? Like that).

Also, Misha Collins is still a regular on the show and was at the panel. He came in late and there was a running joke about his having been fired, but refusing to acknowledge it. Collins was also in other promotional events, signings at the WB Booth, and a goofy EW “dance party” (here and here ) with Ackles and Padalecki, and did a brief interview with them for TV Guide. Bob Singer also essentially admitted that Castiel will be back as Castiel. Somehow.

Mary is not dead and will be seen in the alternate universe. Apparently, Sam thinks she’s alive and wants to look for her. Dean thinks she’s gone for good and wants to concentrate on more pressing matters. This sounds waaaaayyy OOC for Dean, to be honest. Anyhoo, Mary is pretty obviously coming back as a regular recurring character, though Samantha Smith was not at the panel.

Crowley’s suicide was mentioned and discussed several times, so he’s dead. Rowena’s death was also mentioned, but nobody said that would necessarily stick. There was talk of bringing back alternate versions of long-dead characters, which pretty much guaranteed we’ll see Alt-Bobby again and possibly Alt-Gabriel. Assuming there are alternate versions of the archangels.

Sam and Dean will be in conflict over how to deal with Jack (I know! I was shocked, too!). Sam wants to see if Jack can be redeemed and turned to Good (Nurture). Dean feels there’s no need to let things play out to a grim conclusion with a high body count they both know is coming (Nature), and that they should just shoot Jack and be done with it. As Ackles sarcastically put it about seeing how it goes, “What’s the worst that could happen?”

Padalecki noted that Sam would wonder, What if shooting Jack didn’t do the trick? Ackles said that Dean feels it would be better to know that up front. Considering that Dean’s instincts about characters like this are always right and Sam always puts his faith in the wrong powerful characters or groups (remember the LoL last season?), that’s pretty much admitting that Jack will turn out to be evil. Not to mention that Kelly’s death was brought up, as well as the possibility that Jack has some of her “goodness” in her, but no one said anything about Jack trying to save/resurrect his own mother. You’d think that would be the first thing he’d do if he had the capacity for love and goodness.

Andrew Dabb kept talking about how the Brothers started season 12 as “happiest” for them and in season 13, “we just murder.” I have no idea what season 12 Dabb is talking about, but it’s not the one I saw. Maybe it was in that alt-universe from the season finale.

There was much talk about a recent dream Ackles had about the end of the show and Sam dying in the last episode.

In his press room interview, Ackles said the show will pick up immediately upon the cliffhanger, with “Cas lying dead at Dean’s feet.” Overwhelmed, and filled with rage and grief (Ackles hopefully hinted the start of a major breakdown arc), Dean will ask God to resurrect all of the dead (including Crowley), though God will apparently not respond. Dean will then go after Jack with lethal force. Sam will try to stop Dean.

Ackles also talked about being asked by the group Kansas to perform up on stage with them. Struck with fannish stage fright, he declined, preferring to watch. Apparently, the group are fans of the show.

In response to a question about other Hunters on the show, Ackles said he’d like to see some, but it sounds as though none have shown up in the scripts he’s seen so far. About the animated Scooby-Doo episode, he said most of it would be animated, aside from a beginning and ending filmed in the “real world.” Ackles seemed quite perky about the episode.

In his press room interview, Jared Padalecki talked about Sam’s realization of how much he owes Dean and how much they are there for each other as brothers. He said that Sam and Dean are usually focused on some particular “task at hand” rather than emotional stuff. He also said that Sam will be identifying with Jack and obsessed with nurturing him into a good person, while trying to push down his own conflicting emotions about the deaths of last season: “We’ll see it all blow up eventually.”

Asked about how long the show may last, Padalecki ambiguously said it would end when the showrunners decided the quality could no longer continue. He actually gave fewer spoilers than Ackles.

Misha Collins first discussed DNRs (“Do Not Reveal”) and then went into a bit about what happens after Castiel’s death and the Brothers’ “grieving process.”  He says that Castiel, when he comes back, will at first be in a realm that has been talked about but never seen before on the show. He will be alone there save for another being, “played by a great actor,” who is very powerful (Michael? Gabriel? Someone else? Spec away). He also said this will be the last year he does GISHWHES.

Andrew Dabb talked a bit about the alt-verse and about how Sam and Dean are trying to get back to it to save Mary. He talked about how any old-new character who comes back has to “change” to justify their return and not be a cameo. He said the Banes twins won’t be in the spinoff, but may have their story resolved in the main show. He talked briefly, but vaguely, about the Scooby-Doo episode and hinted that Alt-Michael might be the character Castiel meets in the Other Place.

Writing is up to episode 11, already, and an episode similar to “The Vessel,” “but more ambitious,” is coming up in the first batch.

Bob Singer talked about how the Brothers respond to their grief, with the theme of last season being “family drawn together,” while this season is “family torn apart.” Oh, yay. Business as usual, then.

Singer said Sam wants to open up the alt-verse rift, even though Dean worries it’s too dangerous (in the panel, they talked about how Mary intentionally sacrificed herself going through the rift, so she may not be thrilled to find out Sam risked it all to rescue her). More blather like last season about going “smaller in scale” (I am really beginning to hate that phrase).

The spinoff will be a two-parter, 13.09 and 13.10. The Brothers will be strongly involved in 13.09 and barely in 13.10.

Season 12 is available for pre-order on Amazon and will come out on September 5.

There will be three calendars for 2018: two large calendars out on July 1 and two mini calendars on September 1.

I’ve moved my Official live recaps to this site and simul-recapping at Wayward Friends, with reviews to follow. I’m working on the review for the season finale now.

No repeats last week, so no ratings this week.

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182 thoughts on “Whispers, Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 07/24/17: The San Diego Comic-Con Edition”

  1. I just called Barnes and Noble got a young lady named Nadia who knew what she was doing…the issue was received by them at the end of August and sold out the second week of September. How come there was absolutely NO advertisement on this? Did everybody else know this and I didn’t so it was never discussed? I live in the middle of nowhere, I don’t watch much/any regular network television so maybe it ‘was’ advertised there?

    1. I think it was a Comic-Con type of thing. I looked through it when it came out and there wasn’t much in the article.

  2. Did anybody get the Entertainment Weekly Special Edition dated 9/29/17 for Supernatural?

    I just called EW and was told I have to get it at ‘magazine stands’ or Amazon but I don’t ‘want’ to go to Amazon. Did anybody get it at a regular type store and tell me who I have to check with to get it? Last year I think I got it at Barnes and Noble.

  3. Well… I prefer a review sowner rather than later. I find Dabbler and Hacks’ episodes kind of run together like some homogenized crap fest so I have trouble remembering episodes after a,day or two.

    Such boring bad writing. I am sure he will squash any excitement over the AU immediately. I think what worked really well last season had so much to do with the actors carrying the writing. Dean, Mary and Letch were phenomenal. And even though it didn’t make,much sense I liked old stoic clueless Cas too. Lord knows Sheppard gave us great Crowley too connecting his humantype archaeological solely through performance. And Sam was awesome admitting fault finally and taking responsibility.

    But yeah whatever. I am starting to get excited but f u lay realize it will suck balls.

  4. What I thought was interesting was that The Exorcist universe (movie and TV show) has the exorcism taking a ‘long’ time (I guess the demon has to be ‘worn down’ whereas on SPN it was draw a devils’ trap, tie down the demon, and ‘exorciamus te’ and that’s that. (I kept wondering ‘how’ the shows both would do a crossover.) I know the actor is gay and it makes sense the character (Ben Daniels ‘as’ Marcus) is gay too. The demon kept alluding to something in Daniels, so maybe it would be gay-dom. I ‘do’ think Marcus is still a priest, even if excommunicated and what is this business about a ‘plot’ against the Pope? (Tu es sacerdos eternum.) He can’t do services ‘legally’ and he appears to be a stickler for those rules BUT that does not mean the excommunication cannot be lifted (if it is part of some plot to take over the church, he could probably believe the excommunication was thus illegal, right?) so he could return to the ‘good graces’ of the church. But somehow I think he will die this year. The actor is SO intense in the part but I think the character can’t disengage from his mission but it also damn tired.

    1. Most exorcisms on SPN take hours or days and are extremely grueling. There are a few that are immediate, but they generally involve hitting the demon with the exorcism when it’s distracted (usually while it’s trying to use powers). Also, the mythologies are fundamentally different in that a human soul on SPN is not “integrated” with the demon. The risk is that the demon will mortally wound the human on the way out, but the soul is not generally in danger except on those rare occasions when there’s evil in there the demon can exploit. Even then, it’s just a case of the person choosing evil after the possession and becoming hellbound, not being destroyed.

      I’m not sure the demon is actually referring to Marcus being gay (it’s not clear if that’s known to the people around him) so much as his shame over it (demons were established in season one as being really good at using internalized homophobia against a gay victim). And it appears he may be holding a sparkly torch for Tomas.

      The plot against the Pope is something that was heavily covered in season one. The corruption goes almost all the way to the top, so the Pope likely can’t do much for Marcus right now. Even though Marcus saved his life. Things should become clearer for you on that score when Father Bennett comes back (I like Father Bennett; he’s a snarky bastard).

      1. One of the great twists in s 1 was that Father Bennett actually supported Marcus on the sky.
        Love Father Bennett. I was terrified for him last season.

      2. Supernatural is not religious. The priests are charged with saving the immortal souls of not only the possessed but also the demons. The show focuses on the corruption process as a result.
        Tomatoes and eggs.

    2. In season 1 the demons seemed to get to humans literally using the seven deadly sins, foibles which all humans possess to some degree. Marcus carried the sin of pride in his ability as an Exorcist which caused him to throw out all Council except his own belief in his powers. The possessed child dies and he is crushed and without any belief in himself and therefore unable to save lives. Tomas is sent to him by God to reawaken Marcus ‘ faith. My guess,would be that the demon is hinting at Marcus’ spiritual failings and not his gayness which he has not succumbed to.

      Tomas was full of lust in season 1, pride and also hubris at being chosen by god. He was very vulnerable to the demon last season and completely went off of the rails in season 1 in multiple ways. Marcus witnessed a part of this first hand as well as recognizes the pride and hubris in Tomas that was his own downfall very recently. Mostly I think Marcus sees that the demon is gunning for Tomas and knows that Tomas is unscheduled and and vulnerable.

      Tomas played a,very important part last season in demonstrating an Ancient and powerful evil. God works through both men in different ways. Tomas has visions to lead them to a new case and Marcus is the hand of God literally at times. He is a renowned Exorcist. The demons know of them and want to stop them.

    3. The first season emphasizes that the church is man made. Faith is more important and Marcus is a true servant of God.

  5. OK Watched The Exorcist. Ben Daniels is really GOOD in his part. I was very nervous watching all the scenes at John Cho’s house. What happened to Geena Davis’ character and her family in the last season?

    Daniels is SO good I found it hard to watch any scenes with Father Tomas; I could see he was good, I could see the scenes all fit, but he did not grab me like the Daniels character did. I thought in the first season Daniels got top billing and Herrera got second; but this season it is Herrera first then Daniels. Or am I wrong? Anyway, off to IMDB.com to check for the background I can find.

    1. Short, very spoilery answer about Davis & Co.–they won. So, they get to retire out of the story with new lives.

      Daniels is my favorite. I don’t think we need to worry too much about his being shunted to the side. Tomas is fun, but Marcus is more popular, I think. More mercurial. More solitary. Also, gay.

      I do think the show has been heavily influenced in its characterizations by Supernatural, so you have Father Tomas, who gets visions and thinks they come from God (but they don’t), and then you have Father Marcus, who is pretty directly God’s vessel (but can’t explain that to Tomas).

      1. I think some of tomas’ visions are from God. God used Alan Ruck to send Tomas to Marcus. God used Tomas to heal Marcus.
        Unfortunately Tomas is easily seduced and vulnerable. He feels pride and hubris over his ultimate success last season and chafes at being the student.

        Of course Angela’s strength of character and faith were probablymore critical than Tomas.

        His hubris has him believing his visions are all good and godly and the best way to save the innocent when obviously the demon is using him.
        That said the handprints may be a sign from god.
        And God did “talk” to him last season although his role then too was in service to Marcus’ gift from God.

    2. Father Tomas has the ability to inspire faith in others, so much so that he was targeted by the demon conspiracy as one to corrupt. He also is able to restore marcus’ faith and his support keeps the rance family’s,faith strong. Marcus was a target too but only because he was the Exorcist that they feared.

      God has chosen them for different roles.

      Both were great last season. Marcus is far more interesting.

  6. I totally agree with the last paragraph. Look at some 8. Sam goes postal over the fact that Dean kept him to hunt with Benny.

    Interesting to see Crowley’s obsession with Dean when looking back to seasons,5 and 6, as well as his disinterest really in Sam alone.

  7. Today starts Season 6 on TNT. I just don’t ‘get’ why Sam wanted Dean to hunt with him. He backed off but then kept calling.

    I also don’t get why Samuel was letting Sam hunt alone, now Sam put them in danger by his over-violent manner but Samuel must have ‘known’ that Sam was a mess. In the first episodes he was genuinely empathetic with Dean. I do not ‘get’ why Samuel did not discuss things with Dean. And like everybody else I wonder why Samuel was in hell.

    1. While this is never explained outright, there is an exchange between Crowley and Castiel later in the season (in “The Man Who Would Be King”) that gives us some hints. Crowley is talking about finding Purgatory and says he knows just who to do it:

      “CROWLEY I know of two eerily suited ‘Teen Beat’ models with time on their hands.
      CASTIEL No. Not Dean. He’s retired, and he’s to stay that way.
      CROWLEY Fine. Then I know of a certain big, bald patriarch I can take off the bench. The point is…They can get us to the monsters. The monsters can get us to Purgatory. I know it.”

      Crowley is obviously talking about Samuel, who is also pretty obviously in Hell. And while Castiel vigorously stands up for keeping Dean retired, he makes no such protests on Sam’s behalf. So, Sambot gets paired up with Grandpa Shady to work for Crowley.

      Now, here’s where it gets speculative, but we do know that Crowley and Castiel are at odds in season six, despite working together. We know that Crowley wants Dean on board, working for him, and that he’s willing to go behind Castiel’s back to do it. So, it appears he uses Sam and the Campbell clan as the lure to do so. He’s willing to threaten Sam (and pretend he has Sam’s soul in hock) to keep Dean in line.

      I think Samuel resented this and resented his eldest grandson. As for Sambot, he was written so all over the place that it’s really hard to tell at this point what Gamble and Kripke wanted to portray. The best I can say, in context of Sam’s other exploits, is that Sam doesn’t actually do very well without Dean and is even more codependent with Dean (who is capable of living without his brother, even though he chooses not to) than Dean is with him. Being soulless just made him more reflexively selfish about it.

      1. I never knew if you came up with Grandpa Shady or not but I ‘love’ that nickname.

        OK Sam is/was the codependent one. I get that. He’s gone to bizarre lengths the last few years to ‘get his brother back.’ I mean, we have not seen Sam die in a while (I ‘do’ think Gadreel was extreme, but after Dean had facilitated the OK and when they left the hospital, THAT was when Gadreel told Dean that he could not tell Sam. THAT was when the ‘bad’ started and I think Dean was stuck.) so we don’t know what Dean would do if SAM died now.

        You think Samuel resented Dean? Yeah, Dean ‘did’ bring Azazel into his life and kill him, his wife, and then his daughter.

          1. Okay, guys, question here–I got a solid line on watching the show via a few different avenues, but I currently don’t have cable, so no live TV at the moment. Do you still want to participate in a live recap of the show if it’s a day late, or should I just stick to reviews until/unless I get cable back?

  8. Ugh. That finale sacked. Even Jensen felt wooden delivering some of those lines.
    It made no sense for the Winchesters to visit BIZARRO APOCALYPSE. They should have stationed someone to guard the portal… but common evil uber powerful fetus about to be born and Lucifer’s arrival imminent… it makes no sense except to fangirl over alt-Bobby. Dumb.

    Crowley!!!! He surely looked dead with yellow light emanating and all. Didn’t demons used to give out red light (remembering meg’s death and the light show at Cain’s). Then again that gorgeous Lazarus rising riff and Dean’s cockroach comment (coxkroaches will survive the Apocalypse). It was much more in keeping with Crowley’s temperament to kill Sam as the sacrifice. They guy is always thinking if himself (and Dean). No way he kills himself to rid the world of Lucifer. And if he was going to off himself, wouldn’t he Plant a big sloppy wet one on Dean before going.
    More likely he had his meatsuit resurrected to provide the life and faked the lights, etc. Of course Dabb doesn’t really care about characters or logic.
    And there will surely be AU Crowley and AU Cas.

    That kid is not good. That smile at the end says it all.
    And if he was good he would resurrect mama. End of story.
    Did the apple tree remind anyone else of Adam and eve (yes the biblical fruit wasn’t apples per se, however modern convenience labelstore the apples).
    Message that this kid is full of sin because he is the snakes spawn.

    Ugh Dabbler and hacks. Surprisingly good subtext and some storylines. Awful at logical storytelling, world building , plotting and dialogue.

    The promo pretty much says Dean reckless action guy whilst Sam moves. I am in for that.

        1. I think she 2 is off to a good start. Poor Tomas still with the hubris that his belief in God makes him soecial. John Cho is divine in this. Am I wrong to think he will corrupted.

          1. I think the kids will be okay. I mean backwards records and autism, etc. It’s house of f’d up kids. Too easy.
            I think it’s either Cho or the ex. She was walking oddly at the end and Cho’s character is ignoring his needs and his grief by giving everything to the kids. His corruption would be the most poignant and interesting given that he is the center.
            Very creepy set-up. An abandoned boarded up well, ramshackle abandoned cabins, thick woods, remote island and burnt offerings manse… talk about atmosphere that borrows from too many horror stories to name… Wicker Man, Evil Dead, Rings, Blair witch…

  9. OK I want to see if I get what you two think this may be going: in the AU!Earth Mary did NOT make the deal with Azazel. Archangel vessels Sam and Dean were never born. But the rest of the plan went thru (PsyKids, Croatoan, Cold Oak) but there were no Sam and Dean who were informed enough to stop it, HOW to stop it. Lucifer gets raised and whoever was the ‘Sam’ of the AU was possessed. The war got fought but I gather it was a stalemate. The war ‘did’ destroy large parts of the earth with humans as the victims. And the war is still ongoing.

    My big curiosity is whether or not AU Lucifer lost to AU Michael and that others (the Princes of Hell) are continuing the fight. I wonder if they would bring Lehne back as Azazel just so he can get killed again. He was a really GOOD villain. Totally believed his ‘evil’ none of this bull-puckey about weaknesses where Sam and Dean are concerned. I ran it over and over but I still cannot figure out why Crowley participated in the killing of Ramiel and why he saved Castiel. If anybody has a reason for Crowley to break the Michael Lance and save Castiel that makes sense I would like to read it.

    1. Carver’s Crowley arc was about humanizing him… that’s the reason. Ever since he was partially cured he has become progressively human and progressively TFW. He sacrifices himself to save the Winchesters (Dean). He didn’t even try to take out Sam after that dumb assassination attempt. He tried to have a relationship with mum, his son, his surrogate Daughter and most of all with Dean.

    2. I am guessing AU Lucifer is the guy in the white suit. According to Bobby Heaven and he’ll (Lucifer) are duking it out. Demons are Buffy style and Angels where necklaces of baby ears. Few humans,have survived and those that do kill all supernatural beings.

  10. Dabbler and hacks will not get into why AU Michael has a black vessel. It’s AU. That is all the brain power towards that.
    Sorry for the egregious mistakes my demonic autocorrect madetamore@spsmw.org. I hates it I really do.

    After last season I think they need to either tank or majorly reboot both Cas and sam. Evil AU Cas works for me.
    I enjoyed Sam taking responsibility for working with the lol and being seduced by bells and whistles. However the writing for him really sick ed and the fact that he was brutally tortured for Intel as a basic part of lol modus operandi, and the fat the lol was fine with killing Cas, Dean and and Mary because they only needed one Winchester for Intel should have been enough to prevent both Mary and Sam from joining them. The lol cake out of the gate as immoral, unethical and evil. Mary’s intense desire to fix her mistake works somewhat coupled with the lol saving her boys from the government. But she she holds Ave bailed after the Ramier fiasco which absolutely demonstrated that lol saw hunters as expendable tools and put no value on human life other than there own.
    They really should have had Mary be deep undercover to take those motherfuckers down.

    Okay I just realized that sensitive Sam played mediator between angry Dean and Mary/Cas much like dean used to between Sam and John.
    Another reversal supporting my Apocalypse now theory and of course another indication that Sam won’t be the chosen one again.

    Hmmm what if evil AU Michael uses Mary to get Dean. Evil Dean!Michael in lieu of Demon Dean. And Lucifer, Crowley whomever is so fucking terrified that they let crazy Michael out of the cage to get Dean back and we get Dean!Michael!Michael, one crazy evil motherfucker.I would watch that.

    We ate getting Desn!Michael. There is no other reason to revisit the Apocalypse. And perhaps Mary says yes to Lucifer to save Dean because nothing is better than a Scooby gang of desperate frenemies.

    They could go Gonzo crazy if they wanted to. Hell it’s season 13 and there is no end in sight unless the actors pull out.

    1. It’s possible that Dean will say yes to this universe’s Michael to battle the alt-Michael. I dunno. The show does seem to be playing up Dean’s anger and grief, for some reason, but we’ll see if that actually plays out, especially beyond season six (remember Dean’s newfound sense of self last season?).

  11. I used to work for the Phone Company and one of my coworkers told me she had NIGHTMARES about rotary-dial phones (this was when they had just switched to touch tone) and Meg hitting Sam in the head always makes me think of Angie.

    Paula, I had not thought of AU!Michael being a (very handsome) black man is skeevy in the thought of rape during slave times. Let’s think there was a love-story somewhere in the back of time and not a rape. And that AU!Michael is strong enough to bolster the vessel like OUR!Lucifer did with Nick (I know Nick was melting by the end, but Michael feeding himself grace or something might’ve bolstered whoever was his vessel, yeah that works for me). I had not thought before that Mary in the AU saying NO actually ended that world. I wonder if there ‘was’ a Dean in the AU that Michael might not be the ‘worst’ thing out there where humans are concerned.

    I will wait to find out why the angels are slaughtering humans; I also wonder if Croatoan exists in the AU. I am looking forward to the storyline because (and I talked to my husband about this, he agrees) the characters I most want to see are Ash and Rufus. Bobbie is good, I love the interplay of him and His Boys. I am probably more interested in AU!World than I will be with Jackifer and his ‘issues.’

    1. Yeah, considering how touchy a subject it is in the African American community, and how relentlessly tone-deaf Dabb, Singer and the Nepotism Duo have been, I don’t think that’s gonna work. It’s already a case of The PoC Is The Bad Guy.

  12. It is ‘never’ not funny to see Sam hit in the head with the toilet plunger by Chuck at the beginning of Sympathy for the Devil and THEN he gets hit in the face with the rotary phone by Meg…they knew how to give me a giggle. And Sam keeps ‘trying’ to say he is sorry and Dean just keeps saying shut up Shut Up SHUT UP, I don’t want to talk about this now. It takes Dean a while to process and THEN he gets pissed.

    Meg in her motel room scene mentions all the demos are after Dean to get destroy the Michael Sword: I wish they had done more with that except for Swap Meet. AND I wish they had had more angry hunters after them. Should’ve been more of that except for Free to Be….Golly, S5 E1 was action-packed!

    I do wish Dean had dumped on Sam more though. “OH I know you are sorry and you wish you could take it back…” is not that harsh. I know it’s not Dean, but BOY, Sam deserved to be rode hard and put away WET that episode.

  13. Right now on AHC there is a show called Hitler and the Aryan Myth and they are talking about the Thule and the Nazi belief that the Aryans are/were the descendants of the Atlanteans. Made me thing that if SPN goes another 4 or 5 seasons we ‘might’ end up with SAM AND DEAN GO TO ATLANTIS. Wouldn’t that be hilarious? Well, I am laughing and so is my husband, so there.

    1. In another four or five seasons we will get a reprisal of demonic Dean who will buddy up with a rebound Benny and female Crowley for the reboot we all deserve.
      Dabb is recycling storylines, aka. The song remains the same but the day to day and players are slightly changed. Given his creative magnum opus Bloodlines I think that his Supernatural: Sloppy Seconds is for the best.
      Now I really want Mary!Lucifer to kill Same old sam dramatically and permanently so we can have the subversive Dean and Friends Bloody Buddy Hour.
      Benny was the better brother and best friend Dean needed and Crowley’s fixation on Dean transcends death, meats it and alternative dimensions.
      Even in season 5 Crowley insisted on alone time with Dean

      1. Thank you, CC, for giving Midnight, Texas a try. I tried to watch Sleepy Hollow because you were such a fan and did not HATE it but it didn’t seem like so much and I disliked them showing witch-wife’s boobs (super-tight bustiers were not a fashion thing in the late 18th century, you know). (Hey, I spelled bustier right – I checked – and it ‘still’ comes up as wrong spelling. Ticks me off.) and I was surprised how much I disliked John Noble’s part. I know I missed the magic of the first season and am sorry for that. The 2nd group of runners should have a course on how to ruin a show.

        Anyway, I was watching TNT today, and in Dean’s confession of torturing in Hell at the end of Heaven and Hell Jensen was crying out of ‘both’ eyes. I was impressed with how emotional he was. Yowza acting. And finally Sex & Violence was on and I thought about what was going on in the big fight scene ‘over’ Nick at the end: both of them were saying what they really believed. Dean was complaining about things Sam was DOING and Sam was complaining about Dean’s essential nature. It led me to a realization that Sam felt Dean being horrified by what he did in hell as a weakness that Sam would not feel. I remember when Dean was talking to Sam about some awful thing he had done Sam said, HEY I went to hell for the team, I gave at the OFFICE. it wiped out all my sins (and Eva is STILL pissed about nurse Cindy McKellan and that Sam never ‘fessed up). “IF” it had been Sam making the Deal and going to Hell and torturing, I think he would’ve rationalized it. Now my feelings for Sam in Season 4 are generally negative. EVERYTHING the demons did in S 2-3-4 was denigrate Dean in Sam’s eyes (poor needy sloppy Dean) and in S 4 we had Sam joining in. Dean was torturing the ‘guilty’ in the first place and he STILL felt awful. I mean Evan from Crossroads Blues would ‘deserve’ Hell, he made the deal, but he wasn’t an EVIL person. There were probably other people in Hell who were not EVIL, just parents who wanted to save their child or something. Paula went into the priest/bartender couple in Sin City and I looked into the background: she was a rich beauty; a man sent his brother to woo her for him, the brother was handsome and good and the brother was ugly and awful. She fell in love with brother, but agreed to marry HIS brother (I am unsure if ‘priest’ did wrong to her and I think maybe he pretended to be his brother or that his brother was like him, I admit confusion, so the brother while handsome and GOOD may also have been a rotter and/or driven by family loyalty) but husband was AWFUL and wife and brother had an affair. He found them together and killed them both; they went to hell because they died while committing a mortal sin (adultery). I was unsure if they were ‘EVIL’ people or merely normal, you know?

        Anyway, my opinion: Dean felt bad about hurting anybody; Sam would’ve rationalized it and NOT felt badly. Or else Jared is acting in such a way to ‘pretend’ that he does not feel bad about anything he did under demon blood control OR when Soulless.

        The finale of Midnight Texas was a HOOT: virgin witch was set to be raped by a demon (to gain her virgin witchy powers) so her boyfriend said, I hate to be obvious, but we can fix this before Conconnore gets here. (Please laugh along with me: when she orgasmed a shock wave went out and POOFED all the demons. Hey orgasmed showed as wrong spelling, now I KNOW I am right in this one too, do not need to check.)

        1. There’s not much point in spending time watching a show unless you enjoy it. I know tastes and interests vary, but if I’m not engaged after three episodes I generally stop watching a show . I work a lot, and only have time for about one hour of TV a day. I watch SPN about every other day, and other things the other days.

          As far as Sam, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I don’t think he gets that repentance and remorse can be a strength, and a way forward and that’s why his character stagnates so much. I wonder if this is indirectly related to watching Dean’s struggles with self esteem. Sam mistakenly thinks repentance is a sign of not valuing yourself. They say you should be sorry for what you do, nor what you are. Well, Dean is sorry for both what he is and what he does, while Sam rarely feels sorry for either.

        2. I watched that finale. The deflowering the Virgin witch power grab is a trope. I have run across it before.
          I think my main issue was the short run. In my opinion there needed to be a longer season to show bonds being formed, etc. I did not believe in the relationships.
          Wasn’t the sheriff engaged to he dead click in the beginning.
          Absolutely Dean feels guilt over everything he has done whereas Sam didn’t really until the end of Carver’s reign. Sam had that amazing way of shoulder shrugging it off if he felt there was benefit to him. Dean wears the Weight of his amassed guilt although post Carver and post fire wall speech he seems to see the good he does.
          There are so many times sam’s ability to shrug off his very bad behavior has outright horrified me. And yes Ruby played into Sam’s hubris and convinced him that Dean was too weak to do what needed to be done.

      2. I dunno, CC. We may get a reprise of MoC!Dean this season. About the only thing mytharc-related to the Brothers so far is Dean emotionally shutting down. They know for a fact that storyline was a ratings hit and they sure could use some good ratings about now.

        1. Not Moc Dean per se because Amara has the Mark now unless they handwave around that issue. He could still be phoenix Dean. That drives me batty that they had him drink ash and disregarded the fact that a new phoenix rises from the adjacent for exhibition old.. Phoenix Dean could be a ruthless judge, jury, executioner.
          But yes, Dabbled and hacks apparently of be recycling the old mytharcs and character arcs with some adjustments/reversals.
          They hit mom went missing on a hunt repeatedly.
          Powerful child part human part supernatural.
          Lol were substituted for the demons.
          Cas left Dean for heaven and then lucifetus.
          Dysfunctional family upbringing.
          Dean’s abandonment issues.
          Sensitive Stanford Sam.
          The importance of bloodlines.
          Human bodies used as supernatural Vessels.
          The colt fails to kill the uber baddie and they lose it.
          Michael name dropped more than once for no obvious reason. Ditto his special Lance.
          Lucifer still out, alive and kicking.
          An Apocalypse.
          Cas powered up now dead.
          Possibly evil AU cas.
          Possibly Crowley in new meatsuit like meg or AU Crowley in different meatsuit.

          Alas poor Crowley we hardly knew ye.

          I want new Crowley to be the fabulous female lead from Sleepy Hollow, Nicole Beharie . My God would she and Jensen melt the cameras.

          1. Nicole Beharie was the BEST thing on Sleepy Hollow. I watched most of a season for Castiel’s Cat and was impressed with her ‘gravitas’ and ‘self-assuredness’ in the part.

            I guess the show just puts an angel in whatever sex they are ‘previously’ (it impresses me that Castiel in the past I think twice now has been shown in female vessels) but to keep the actors they say something about “I got to keep a template of my previous vessel because I was ‘used’ to it” and OK I like Mischa so Jimmy!Cas is A-OK with me. Now Raphael switched sexes but NOT color. Gabriel seemed wedded to Richard Speight JUNIOR and if I remember correctly that Lucifer in last season’s merry-go-round of vessels was also always male. So when we meet the same angel the ones that have female names (I would say Hester was a female and so was Rachel ‘from the beginning of their existence’) it appears that heaven does have ‘some’ kind of a sexual distinction even if angels have no sex.

            Back to Crowley: he was a woman for a hot minute in the beginning of season 10 as Marnie, the birthday girl who had sex with and murdered her husband and their friends…and was menopausal at the same time. Now “Crowley” I think would be willing to ‘go girl’ for a while to see if he could get Dean, yes siree BOB. In Nicole Beharie’s body, yowsa. The ‘only’ reason I got to watch Route 666 or Slice Girls is the Dean sex scenes.

            1. Something that’s problematical is that an absolutely huge part of the angel vessels story (which was kept as late as the first half of last season) involves bloodlines. It’s simply not something you can retcon when Michael and Lucifer’s vessels are still the protagonists. Yet, the show has alt-Michael inhabiting a black vessel when the only thing different about this alt-verse is that John stayed dead and his sons were never born.

              Now, it’s entirely possible for an archangel vessel bloodline to involve People of Color. That’s why Raphael’s vessels were African American. But Michael’s bloodline is very, very, VERY specific and there’s never been any hint that the Winchesters had any African American blood in their line. In fact, from what we saw of the MoL, both sides of the Atlantic, they were all hideous snobs and bigots.

              So, one has to ask where this super-duper strong PoC Michael vessel came from and what the Unfortunate Implications involving possible slave owner ancestry that the show is ignoring really are. I’m all for increasing the diversity on the show, but not when the subtext is so careless.

        2. Dean shut down during the Apocalypse too when he felt Sam slipping away and also in 7 when he had lost Cas. Losing Cas and his mommy is just something that rebuilding baby won’t cure.
          Sam runs. Dean shuts down and goes on autopilot hunting or car refurbishing. Blood and chrome.

  14. Jeffrey Vincent Parise is an actor I liked very much on General Hospital (he played a bad guy-killer who was NOT conflicted about being a bad guy); I recognized him as playing the guy in the white suit in the SPN Season 13 trailer (others have said he appears to be playing the last Knight of Hell, Asmodeus, a person who is NOT conflicted about being a bad guy).

    I went to his IMDB page and did not see SPN listed as a job.

    Paula, do you know if I am right or wrong here?

      1. Suits as an angel indicator is interesting. The thing is, SPN had always made a distinction between fallen angels, and demons which are human in origin. But when I first watched SPN, I assumed Azazel was some sort of fallen angel, because I had read somewhere that Azazel was the name of a fallen angel in angel lore (I think he actually started life as a Persian Deity). Fast forward 12 seasons, and the brothers trapped Ramiel, a fellow prince of hell, using what appeared to be holy fire. I would think that was a little overpowered for a human demon, even a powerful one. Does this indicate that the princes of hell are in fact of angelic origin and Lucifer “graciously” allows them to rule by his side so long as they serve his interests. My admittedly brief Internet research indicates that Ramiel is also the name of a fallen angel. Though I didn’t see a similar reference to Dagon.

        It makes sense to me that the Knights were of human origin with Cain as their progenitor, and this is why the first blade (of human origin) was needed to kill the most powerful of them.

        It also makes sense to me that the Princes were of angelic origin brought along with Lucifer to serve him, and only entrapped by holy fire. And that as her brother in arms, Azazel, was killed by the Colt Dagon sought a way to destroy the Colt.

        Alternatively, the power of the Colt might actually come from the one who wields it. A “lesser” human than Dean might not have the same results. After all, would Azazel have seriously given the colt to Jake if he believed there was a risk he’dbe harmed by it.

        Anyway, the idea that the white suited guy could be the remaining Prince, and some sort of angel to boot seems interesting to me.

        Of course this is all just wild and poorly researched speculation. And Crowley also wore a suit.

        1. Dagon is a Lovecraftian mythos being as far as I know. I had the same idea about Azazel and Ramiel. They share the yellow eyes too.

          Crowley wears a suit because he’s a dapper fop. Most demons come as they are it seems although
          AbbAdon also had a signature look. Lucifer only wore the white suit… oopla! Lucifer wore the white suit during the Apocalypse when Sam played him. It could be AU Lucifer.

          I think all angels are bad in the AU-POCALYPSE because of Bobby’s comment that he spared Cas because he wasn’t wearing the baby ears necklace. So Bobby immediately recognized Cas as an angel. Was it the suit or does AU Cas wear the same meats hit. I am going to guess the latter given the AU frenemy hint and the fact that cas lives. I don’t see jack bothering to resurrect him now that he’s born

          Of course the freely ould,be AU Crowley or real Crowley in a new meats it because he sacrificed his old one in the spell. They already reminded us recently that Crowley is excellent at the smoking out unseen. He stabs himself and smokes out before the spell is completed or the spell simply needed a blood sacrifice not a soul sacrifice.

          My gut tells me we get evil AU Cas, a OPT bonanza, and a new meatsuit for Crowley. Yeah and the white suit guy is AU Lucifer.

          Which does suggest a battle Royale with Original Lucifer and original Michael against the AU versions. Definitely Dean!Michael. They hit the Mary!Lucifer anvil frequently last season. And stepping in rather than Sam is a way of a toning for the effects her deal had on Sam. Again they reminded us of the trauma Sam feels regarding Lucifer during the Lol! Bitch speech.

          It really is a great way to show the Winchesters that they do matter via it’s a bizzaro wonderful Apocalyptic Life, a great way to give fans Dean! Michael and off the rails Dean, and a great way to reboot dead friends (just never Charlie).

          And they hit the Apocalypse tropes all season staring with the character reboot and substitution of mom for dad (and Sam). As bad as the writing was I Am pretty impressed by their use of mirrors, parallels and sub-text. Y’all have to remember me crying Apocalypse all season.

          Also loved what they did with Dean and Mary. I was in tears over sad Dean faces and especially
          When he said, “I hate you… and I love you”. Goodness was that speech awesome. They shared a powerful archaeological. Letch toof.

  15. Christian Keyes is the AU!Michael per io9.gizmodo.com Morning Spoilers. Good looking guy. Gather he has ‘won’ the war with hell, but I am curious if there is an AU!Lucifer in AU!Earth. Would they of their ‘natures’ fight it out first?

    They posted a picture of Luci and Mama talking to AU!Michael and Michael looked large and in charge.

    1. Yeah, I saw that last night. Another season, another black guy as an evil angel. Oh, yay.

      Dabb seems to have a special talent for pissing fans off.

    2. Huh.
      A Michael can’t be good then because AU Bobby talked about angels wearing necklaces of baby ears.
      Still voting for Mary Lucifer and Dean Michael at some point.
      You don’t bring back the Apocalypse unless you intend for Dean Michael to get his day in the sun.

    3. The first Joshua was a black man (and an actor I like very much). Other than Uriel and Gerald who were bad guys who were angels. I can’t think of anybody else.

      1. Today I was watching Death Takes a Holiday and “Gerald” had a small part in the beginning: he walks out of a bar with a friend and the friend gets shot in the heart at close range but does not die. I was watching it, and I remembered the shootee being on Dark Matter as #6’s cop friend and looked him up too to see if he had ever been on SPN again, but no.

        I “love” looking actors up and seeing that they were on the show previously, makes me smile.

  16. I did not see it here but Rachel Miner (2nd Meg) is now an Executive Director for SPN!

    I did not know much about her but noted that she has MS and I think she has been doing voice work. Is she in remission? (I know somebody who has MS and used a cane for quite a while and THEN a new regimen of drugs kicked it and now she walks without a cane and quite well!) What does an executive director do?

    One thing the show has needed for quite a while is a continuity person who keeps them from making mistakes like Let’s Go to the Grand Canyon because I never been there to Remember our Grand Canyon donkey trip. I don’t know if that is what an exec dir does or oversees who does what episode.

    1. Eh…where did you see this? Do you mean Executive Producer? I don’t think there’s any such thing as an Executive Director. And that would make her a showrunnner, which would be highly unusual. There’s also no mention in the usual places.

      I like Miner. Yeah, she has MS. People go back and forth, especially depending on the success of treatments.

      1. OH, it was not presented that way. I know very little about MS but I ‘do’ know that stress is bad for it. Running a charity would be less stressful than working on the show. Thanks for the more complete information.

  17. I have read some ‘rumors’ that Jake Abel may come back as Michael. I want Jensen as Michael. But I don’t know what would be the mechanism of getting Dean to say YES. Save the alt-world?

    Jake Abel was in the Percy Jackson movies, and it stunned me how he was scarcely taller than Logan Lerman in the first and in the second he was about a foot taller. (GOOGLE said Jake is 6’1″ and Logan is 5’9″ but I don’t think so, unless Logan did a growth spurt AFTER Percy 2? because he was SO MUCH bigger).

    1. There are always rumors that Abel is coming back. Who knows? The writers don’t seem interested in bringing Michael back, but if they did, it could come out of the blue. That said, they seem determined to detach from the Vessels storyline completely, what with Lucifer now rejecting Sam as his perfect vessel after all these years.

      1. And yet we had several unnecessary Michael shout outs in 12.
        Dean would say yes to save Mary. They established that in spades last season. His feelings about his mother are more intense than even those he has towards Sam.
        Lucifer saying no to Sam simply means Sam is out of the vessel mytharc.
        And yes I realize Lucifer now has his handy dandy new and improved Nick suit. That doesn’t he won’t use Mary to get back at the Winchesters. He has to be plenty mad at being fouled again by those particular monkeys.
        They trolled the Apocalypse all season indicating it would not be the same Apocalypse. And yes they showed us BIZARRO APOCALYPSE. But it really ain’t a Superratically Apocalypse unless the Winchesters are personally involved.
        They set Mary up to be Lucifer’s meats hit with repeated references and we even saw Lucifer trap Vince with a ploy that could work on Mary too.
        And they needlessly brought up Michael and showed Dean willing to risk himself again and again to save her.
        They might as well kill Sam because he is useless and totally plot driven like some aimless bot without personality.
        Of course the spoilers don’t follow through on anything hinted at throughout season 12.
        Jack seems to be busy work to distract from saving Mary which means saving Mary is when stuff gets interesting.
        Hoping for BIZARRO evil Cas too. Case is another character they have ruined with the writing.

        1. Mary is the reason. They spent season 12 showing us that the one thing Dean cares about more than Sam is Mary.

          Dean would not be stupid enough to believe that the world can be healed. He has seen too much.

  18. I like the male witch a lot. Great actor.
    Interesting parallels with Jack’d Cas and Jack’d Kelly as well as Mary’s mind control.

    1. It makes a lot of sense to me that he would ‘return’ his sister from the dead more than most; every twin I have ever known had a ‘different’ brother/sister relationship than usual. I liked him a lot in Asa Fox and in their 2nd episode.

    2. And of course parallel to meats suits, vessels.

      Eva view I watched Midnight, Texas again. Still think it sucks worse than the worst nepotism duo episode.

      1. Thanks for trying. The season-ender is this Monday. I just “love” the NM landscapes. I admit to prejudice, I do. But I love the NM landscapes.

  19. Supernatural

    Premieres: October 12 at 8:00 pm on the CW

    Writing a fall TV recap for Supernatural is like staring at a clock waiting for it to turn another minute. It’s an accepted part of our reality at this point that it will always be. This is the longest-running live-action fantasy series in American history, and the showrunners have said they’ll keep it alive as long as they can. This season is going to be about Sam and Dean having some parental bonding time with Jack, and an “old friend” from an alternate reality will be appearing as the season’s Big Bad (since what is dead may never die). If you’re already watching the show you’re going to keep watching it. Otherwise, never mind.
    From io9’s summary of fall season. http://io9.gizmodo.com/all-the-new-and-returning-shows-coming-to-tv-this-fall-1798322234

    Lord does this sound terrible. Hopefully it is just the first episodes.

    1. So my guess is the friend/big bad from the bizzaro universe is Castiel. We learned from alt Bobby that Angel’s wear necklaces made from baby ears. That is not good.

      I still think Lucifer will want revenge but he may enjoy alt Apocalypse for a while before returning in Mary.

      Jack cannot be good because that would be boring and too much of a get out of jail free card. Also he was able to resurrect and mind control as a fetus. This kid does not need protection or parenting.

      This sounds so bad although I wouldn’t mind evil alt Cas at all.

  20. The showed some weird vixen animals I think arrow and Flash cameos this Wednesday. Are they not finishing the season?
    Why the hell is a powerful woman with the power of any and all animals called vixen. Why would she call herself vixen. She had ginormous breasts too and a wasp waist. Ugh.

    1. Vixen is an ongoing character since last season on Legends of Tomorrow. Personally, I liked her, but I worried they’d write her out or recast her. The show has an unfortunate tendency to cast few female leads, and then replace whichever one is the WoC, each season. I understand they’re bringing in a third female character who is Muslim, so I’m hoping they don’t kill off another female character to “make room”!

        1. That was the one with Megalyn Echikunwoke. To refresh your memory, she played Dean’s ex in “Route 666.” On LoT, Vixen is a different character (an ancestor of Megalyn E’s character), albeit in the same superhero role. So, she’s played by a different actress.

  21. Everyone focuses on the collusion as big treason but it probably was a business deal in exchange for help weaponszing the hacked information and fabricated misinformation. Sure they poked around voting machines and maybe they did physically flip some votes but the biggest operation was propaganda.
    It was something that could not be countered with fact checks or platform, which is why blaming Hillary’s message is ridiculous. The Dems would have needed to sink as low and thankfully for this country they did not play that way.

    Mueller is smart to follow the money. You can be sure that Trump and company profited financially. Look at how they have monetized the presidency.
    Nothing about the Russian ogligarchy is above board.

    I have seen the power of misinformation in the workplace. The power of liars and lies against those who tell the truth and focus on their job amazes me.

  22. You know, I spent time in Germany in 1987 and again in early 1990. At that point WWII and Hitler were still pretty fresh in people’s minds. I also got to spend time in what was then East Germany. In Dresden, in particular, the effects of the war were obvious, because they had hardly rebuilt at all. Sure, there were newer apartments and some businesses, but there was also 40 year old war rubble all over the place. And the people were pretty clear about all the harm Hitler had caused. And yet, at least one person that I talked to was not at all ready to allow that what they had been experiencing under the Eastern Bloc regime was anything but beneficial. I suspect there were more like him.

  23. The thing about indoctrination is that it wears you down, slowly, over time, like water dripping on a rock. Even if you initially sense that what you are being taught is wrong, it becomes easier to just go with it, especially if everyone around you is buying it, until eventually you become convinced otherwise. And then you become psychologically, if not physically, isolated from those who might convey better sense. In fact, the isolation is often self imposed at that point. It is very self reinforcing.

    After that, I think it is nearly impossible to break a person out of their “programming” unless they want it themselves. And that takes a pretty powerful motivation and a lot of hard work. And quite possibly a near or total break with their past.

    Watching Dean slowly and painfully break free from the indoctrination he received from his father was, for me, the most compelling thing about the earliest seasons. That is why he fought so hard against the angels, didn’t buy the crap the BMOL were dishing out, and has generally been the champion of free will. He had worked way too hard for his freedom to let it go without a fight.

    1. What’s really interesting in looking at Dean from the beginning of the series in hindsight is that the idea that he blindly followed John beyond, say, his mid-teens doesn’t hold water even at the beginning. Dean is off on a solo hunt when John goes missing. *Dean* chooses to bring Sam in from the cold, as it were, not John. Sam says that Dean can look for John on his own and Dean can. In fact, Dean could probably do it much for efficiently. But for Dean, it’s easier to keep an eye on Sam when they’re together. Dean is reluctant to let Sam go back, but he never actually tries to force him to stay. Azazel is the one who forces Sam out on the road by having Brady murder Jess. Hence why Dean feels guilty about her death–it got him what he wanted but definitely not in the way that he wanted.

      John does send the Brothers hunts to go on, but Dean chooses to take them, deciding both to follow John’s plan and see how it goes, and that it’s critical to save as many people as he and Sam can until their father finds their enemy and they can strike at it. But when they do meet again, Dean immediately sends John away, saying he and Sam are too much a danger to their father. And when John comes back, Dean doesn’t hold back in telling John that waiting time’s over. Dean doesn’t realize that he is evolving from a soldier to a general, but the uneasy way John responds to Dean’s new “attitude” shows that *he* sees it very clearly.

      We may never find out why, exactly, Azazel took that deal for John’s life and the Colt. It could be that because he was a fanatic, he was just trying to hold off getting killed by Dean until he’d accomplished his goal and never seriously thought he had a chance to kill Dean and avert his own fate (until the very end, when his demon hubris got the best of him). By killing John and taking the Colt, he set Dean back several months and took away the means Azazel knew Dean would use to kill him.

      What’s equally interesting is why John made that deal. Did John see Azazel’s worry about Dean while he was possessed? Azazel was using John’s body to murder Dean at the time, after all. He could have slipped up. In that case, John may have realized that in order to outmaneuver Azazel for good, he had to get him off Dean’s back. The Colt was still retrievable and John didn’t need to stay alive for Dean to get that chance later. But if Dean died…well…that would really screw up the humans-win timeline.

      1. The sad thing about this interpretation about John and Azazel, and I admit it rings true although I had never considered it, is that it muddies John’s motivation about trading his life for Dean’s even further. But he consistently placed the hunt for Azazel ahead of his sons, and I expect any tactical advantage factored into his decision. Maybe that was one more reason he could not be the righteous man.

        1. As far as Dean blindly following John in the beginning of the show, it is clear that Dean is an experienced independent hunter by the pilot. He requested Sam’s help for what was essentially a family emergency, and gave it up when he realized John was probably alive and didn’t want to be found. Following John’s orders as it were.

          As far as keeping an eye on Sam by keeping him near while hunting, I would argue that this shows the extent to which Dean had internalized John’s agenda for him. So much so in fact that he is able to adapt the methods. After all, a difference in method is not the same as a difference in goal. Because why in particular should he be watching out for Sam at all at that point? Sam was an adult. John hadn’t shared his fears about Sam’s demonic connection yet. Even the psychic stuff hadn’t really surfaced, as far as Dean was aware. Allowing Sam to go back to college was an inconvenience, but I expect he would just have resumed remote surveillance.

          Dean probably did start to question his father’s orders internally when he was a teenager, probably around the time of “bad boys”, when another adult essentially pointed out that John’s motives were not in Dean’s best interest. And more overt questioning had probably been building up for some time.
          However, John’s discomfort at Dean giving orders to him or questioning his failure to return his calls indicates this had been internal at best until fairly recently. I would argue that the real turning point happened at John’s failure to return calls in “Faith”. After all, if Dean died, who would look after Sammy, calling John’s whole agenda into question.

          1. I think Dean could be…creative…in following John’s orders. It’s brought up a lot that Dean hates authority, but follows his Daddy, as some kind of brainwashing. But I think it’s more of a hint that after a certain point, Dean *chose* to follow his father out of love rather than mindless, unquestioning loyalty. As much as I hate a lot of “Trial and Error” (and that stupid “twist”), I do think Sam is right that Dean keeps thinking he’s a “grunt,” when he’s really a general and a “genius.” Dean may lead from the front (usually), but he leads. That’s what makes his willingness to send Sam to take out the LoL Quonset Hut such a big step. That is Dean consciously general-ing.

            I’m rather disappointed by how season 12 kept teasing about the Winchesters being famous, then did not a whole lot about it. But I do think there were hints that in the Hunter world, Dean is the King. And since the Hunters are a regulating force on the supernatural world in general, that says a lot about Dean’s place in it.

          2. I think Dean went back to John and Sam in Bad Boys to make Sam’s life better, so Sam wouldn’t suffer John’s,wrath the way Dean had. It’s the earliest inception of Dean sacrificing himself for someone else.

        2. I see John essentially trading his life for Dean’s so that Dean could be The Firewall between Sam and the Dark within Sam. John knew there would never be real trust between Sam and himself. It was a calculated decision on John’s part. John was a Big Picture guy and believed that Sam was in great spiritual danger. I remember in the Salvation episode that John said he could not take this anymore, that it was all going to end ‘now’ (it was on again on Friday on TNT) and I think he ‘was’ at the end of his tether.

          I agree with you ‘why’ John (or Sam for that matter) could not be the Righteous Man: both John and Sam were In the Hunt for revenge. Dean wanted ‘revenge’ but his primary motive was always saving people from what HE and his family had gone thru. Dean ‘also’ saw a Big Picture but it was a different one than John saw. Golly, did Dean change after John died. Sam was mostly the same, but Dean was no longer the guy who said stuff like “Vampires, that is never not going to be funny” or words to that effect. Boy, did John’s death suck the silly out of Dean. Before that, I think he felt (no matter the danger) that the Winchesters were invincible.

      2. Boy I need a rewatch because I am not following this train of thought.
        Azazel took the deal because he thought John might be the righteous man. He smelled something about dean. I assume that John smelled similarly.
        He may also have gotten enough of,a,sense of John while possessing him to believe he was the guy.
        He took the colt to save his skin.

        I agree that Dean wasn’t shown to be the good foot soldier to John. In fact that may just be Sam’s dismissive description of him, not knowing that Dean was berated and beaten whenever he strayed from John’s commands as a child. I have seen enough and heard enough to know that Sam felt left out of the Dean/John hunting stuff and probably also resented that Dean was in charge.

        Dean does have a need to keep the family together and puts up with abuse to achieve that goal.

        1. According to “In the Beginning,” Azazel has known since 1973 that Samuel Campbell’s grandson Dean Winchester is going to kill him in some unspecified future time. And since Dean keeps trying to kill him with the Colt in 1973, it’s a safe bet that’s what he will use to do it.

          So, Azazel knew for 33 years before they finally met face to face in 2006 that Dean was his nemesis. He knew his name. He knew his face. He even knew Dean was protected by angels (which complicated assassinating him early even more than the fact that Dean was a Psykid’s brother). Everyone else in Dean’s family, including Sam, was just a pawn in Azazel’s plan, but Dean…Dean was a player. Dean he feared and hated. Because someday, Dean was going to bring him down.

          Azazel may or may not have believed that John was the Righteous Man, but that’s not why he killed John. He killed John because John was a pain in the ass and a threat to his plans. He took the Colt to protect himself, but especially because he needed it to open the Hell Gate. But he tried to kill Dean, not just out of revenge for his “kids,” but because he knew Dean would eventually kill him. The only question, I think, is how much Azazel was trying to avoid his overall fate completely (by killing Dean) and how much he was just trying to stave off the inevitable long enough to complete his mission.

        2. Do you really think John beat Dean? I don’t. John was a complicated man, he ‘was’ abusive vocally but I don’t think he ‘ever’ hit Dean in anger. JMO. AND I thought that Dean understood that John was just ‘paying it forward’ in Dead Man’s Gun when after an argument with Sam (which he did not win btw) he said Dean was not properly ‘caring’ for Baby. Dean did not ‘like’ it, but I felt it was not important to him. (I ‘really’ disliked Sam laughing about that; I thought what a jerk.)

          1. I think it’s a given that John was emotionally and verbally abusive toward the Brothers, and occasionally physically abusive toward them. The constant shoving and yelling in “Dead Man’s Blood,” especially, as well as the Brothers’ disquieting comfort with settling disputes with their fists, comparisons to Psykids like Max, Young!Dean’s extreme fear of “disappointing” his father and the pregnant pauses in some of Dean’s stories about John, and all the people talking about how John was messed up after Mary died to a point where he destroyed their kids, paint a pretty clear history and pattern of abuse.

            What John said to Dean about Baby was extremely mean-spirited and intended to hurt Dean. That Dean was strong enough to shrug it off at that point does not change the intent.

  24. Scary indeed. I suspect some of my family would be among the third to go. I live in a pretty conservative part of the world, and I am always a little shocked at the number of people I know who think our current administration is the greatest thing ever. But I’ve had the opportunity to learn a few things about leadership, and good leadership is exactly what we don’t have.

    That said, another SPN episode involving Nazi could be a lot of fun. I even liked the one this season, daffy though it was.

    1. I think the very ridiculousness and stupidity of the Nazi episodes are what make them fun (though it may also be because the first and third eps were stupid, but “The Vessel” is a great episode in which they are a classic SPN villain, and holds the trilogy together). They’re a totally one-dimensionally evil villain, yet their motivations make perfect sense (unlike the LoL) and they are incredibly dangerous. There’s none of this “Let’s look at both sides” crap because that’ll get you killed with the Thule. Collateral damage is no big deal to them and supporting their cause does not protect you at all.

      Now, I understand that in real life, living under Nazi domination was a *lot* more complicated. Being in one of the many groups on Hitler’s hit list was incredibly dangerous and helping anyone from one of those groups was equally dangerous. Even appearing to be “soft” on Jews and other groups could get you killed. But I also think the Thule work at this point, weirdly enough, because the story is poking fun at them and any pretensions of respectability Neo-Nazis have, while taking them deadly seriously as a threat.

      The show also makes it abundantly clear in the story of the two kids who are related to the Thule by blood, but want out, that being a Thule is a choice all the way down the line. It’s possible to have started out a Thule or a relative of Hitler and still choose to be Good.

      It’s also interesting that in the story (in the otherwise-crappy “Southern Comfort”), Dean is most definitely *not* pro-Lost Cause. Dean has nothing but contempt for the movement and clearly sides with the North.

      1. My husband’s patents survived the war in Germany and emigrated here. His mom tells horrible stories about how one had to act or you and your family would disappear.
        That said she will not believe Hitler was as bad as the west says. She didn’t see it. She herself survived a refugee camp because of the Allied invasion.
        We saw first hand how people’s minds can be easily shaped when their sources for information are
        con trolled or limited by choice.

        1. It’s a proven fact of psychology that people have a hard time letting go of preconceived notions, however ridiculous they may be. Of course, the flip side to that is that it’s relatively hard to “reprogram” people once you’ve programmed them, so there’s that. But if the original conditioning is crap, it’s very hard to break the stupid and anyone who comes along to reinforce it has almost a “cheat” that bypasses a lot of people’s good sense.

          There really are some people who lived through that time who are still living and still think Hitler was fine. There are also some people who lived through Stalinism and are in total denial about him, too.

          1. Yes. She thinks Hitler was maligned by the west, even uttering the phrase “poor little hitler”.
            Propaganda is powerful.

        2. My mom was a Polish Catholic and ended up spending years in a Nazi work camp. And to her dying day she hated the Russians more than the Germans. THAT was the propaganda ‘she’ was raised with. Then she spent 4yr or so in a British refugee camp and she hated the British more than the Russians. I never got it either.

        3. Castiel’s Cat, I tried to reply to other missives from you. I was so upset yesterday when DACA was announced to be undone I could scream and cry.

          Today I came back here to read your comments on the io9.gizmodo.com column. I will be happy to see Bobby again. Wonder if AU Bobby says idjit all the time.

    2. One of the worst things Rush Limbaugh ever called Obama (and I never heard anybody use this before him but read it on line after Rush said it) was HALF-RICAN.

      I would love to see Sam and Dean bring Max Banes along to break up some neo-Nazi Thule cult because with Max they would get a THREE-FER: black (but I bet they would say the Rush Limbaugh term), gay AND a man-witch (I thought Max always called himself a witch, but would Max be a WARLOCK? Was the Chicago cop guy witch called a witch or a warlock? I can’t remember and I will NOT go back to watch the episode to find out.) and Max could really do a number on them. Of course, his sister would be with him and Sam and Dean would know she was not the ‘real’ girl Alicia (I just went to imdb.com to verify if her name was Alicia — as I thought or not — and I found that the cast names ALICIA and a character called Alicia’s Brother! HUH!). I would like to see Sam and Dean help Max out from his curse or whatever because he used dark magic to bring her back.

      1. I am interested to find out what became of Max and Alicia. Nothing good, I’m sure. I presume Alicia is now a ghost, trapped by her heart, and they go insane over time. As it was her own brother that entrapped and enslaved her, her sense of betrayal will be boundless, once she figures it out. They were sort of framed similarly, but this is really the direct opposite of Dean going to hell to bring Sam back. I know Max was grieving, but this seems like grief mixed with entitlement, much more like Sam going after demon Dean. Obviously, Sam would eventually die again, but by going to hell, Dean gave him a second chance to live life free of Azazel’s curse, if he chose (he didn’t), and determine the course of his own afterlife. Unlike many of the other ghosts in SPN , Alicia did not choose to become a ghost. And as the show indicated, ending the curse merely caused her final destruction, as there was no light indicating her soul the ascension or descension of her soul. And Max knew this, based on his conversation with the old witch. Watching their interactions, it seemed like Max just didn’t take Alicia seriously as a person. This felt so much like Sam grieving for Dean at the end of season 9. I find I have very little sympathy for Max.

        1. I mean, no light indicating that the souls of the others were freed upon ending the spell. I wonder if the old witch encoded this into the spell to keep them from coming for her eventually.

          1. She must have had some kind of protection in place, as must most witches. The episode was not at all clear on what the mechanism was for fueling these stick figures and what happened to the souls. Mainly, though, I was just angry that they introduced this PoC family, killed off the two female characters, then Gary-Sued the one male (gay) character *and* made him a creep.

  25. This is a small cavil and I ‘really’ don’t blame TNT: Today on their Supernatural bloc they are showing four of the last five Season 11 episodes. Now, I agree with Paula that the finale of Season 11 was just about the weakest episode of the season. But on Monday (and I checked already) they are showing Alpha and Omega (finale for season 11) at 8am (here) and then at 9am they are going to PILOT. I just wish they had run ONE MORE hour of SPN and finished off the year just because the whole ‘feel’ of the show in different in Season 1 PILOT. Like I said, I can’t blame ’em for keeping to their 4-a-day schedule, but they occasionally run 3 or 5 and I would’ve liked it if they ran 5 today. Just to start off Monday ‘clean’ if you know what I mean. When they went from Season 10 (Mark-of-Cain Dean and the MESS he was) to Season 1 (happy-go-lucky Dean) I find it disconcerting.

      1. I get a cable channel called American Heroes Channel (nee The Military Channel) and they have had BUNCHES of shows on The Thule and the search for Atlantis and looking for the soldiers of Interior Earth. If you get that channel it is a STITCH to watch the Nazis searching for mystical objects (they knew where the Spear of Destiny was so they got that after the Anschluss, Hitler went and got it himself out of a museum). You know, that would have been a GREAT season Big Bad using the Thule. Everybody (aka MOST everybody) hates Nazis.

      2. Yeah. We live in scary times. I saw a great Werner Herzog quote on FB. The gist:
        America now has the opportunity to are 1/3 of the population kill another third of the population whilst the remaining third sits by and foes nothing.
        He grew up in Germany during WWII and has ano amazing body of film to his credit.
        Absolutely brilliant. An excellent observer of the world.
        I see a sleep doctor so I can sleep and dyed my hair pink in perpetual protest.

      3. Well the resistance has magic on its side. I read that many covers have cast a binding spell on Trump so he cannot do harm.
        Sadly he can ban transport troops and throw out Dreamers by executive order.

  26. I watched 3hr of SPN today on TNT. I am liking Season 10 more than I remember. Of the non-core seasons (everything after 5) I liked 11 the best and now I think 10 just before it. I liked the twist in The Werther Box for instance. If you watch all the episodes of the season NOW I can see the way Jensen was calibrating his ‘fall’ to the Mark of Cain and I like the series much better for that. Sam saying every week, Dean is losing his fight against the Mark…I did not see it in particular any week. But as a totality, now I do.

    1. I think Ackles did a great job of showing Dean slowly losing control and losing his mind. It was a slow-motion nervous breakdown.

      Sam’s reaction was a little harder to buy in terms of altruistic motives, largely because what he was doing to try to “fix” things was very counterproductive and, in light of some of the things he said and did, mean-spirited. I mean, his actions in 10.03 are quite vicious and an awful lot like 1950s shock therapy.

      1. Or ice pick labotomies.

        I do not think Carver intended Sam to be heroic in season 10. It was an entire season of Sam being worse than Dean despite being the human brother. A stark contrast to Dean’s behavior as a demon and Marked man as well as Dean’s caring human arc during seasons

        Carver really emphasized that although Dean’s flaws, low self worth and a desire to sacrifice himself for the greater good, may lead to dire circumstances as in his demon deal or the Mark; Dean never intends to hurt anyone but himself and he feels tremendous remorse and guilt when his suicidal impulses affect others.

        Equally he emphasized that Sam’s flaw of hubris and the colossal shoulder chip he carries consistently drive him to believe any risk is acceptable and any action is acceptable as long as Sam gets the glory and Sam gets what he wants.

        Carver often paralleled the brothers stories to emphasize these core differences, sometimes even in the same episode. Three instances that
        immediately come to mind:
        The parallels in the season 10 premiere in which Sam effectively plays the demon’s role in tempting and damning Lester and condemning Lester’s wife to death whilst Demonic Dean refuses to play the demon and effectively plays hunter by killing Lester after deciding he is evil thereby saving the innocent wife.

        The parallels between Dean’s discomfort at seeing Sam tortured and in pain whilst Crowley attempts to remove Gadreel’s hold on him and Sam enjoying the brutal and tortuous aspects of curing demonic Dean, even making it more painful than it needs to be.

        The parallels in the season 10 finale are striking. The supposedly out of control Dean feels remorse when Rudy becomes collateral damage in a hunt even though Rudy was a dead man regardless of Dean’s presence. Later Dean refuses to perform a human sacritics to save himself. In contrast Sam has been out of control for episodes risking both Charlie and Cas and sanctions a human sacrifice and risks destroying the world, all because he needs to be the one to save Dean.

        There’s some interesting parallels in the all Stones must die episode too. In that case Sam is actually paired with Papa Styne whilst Crowley and Dean are paired. The comparison is made in the editing. We cut between the Scenes between Sam and Papa Stone both thinking they have the upper hand before their fallen adversaries betray their greater power.
        I think Carver pulled no punches to show that Sam in season 10 was no hero.

      2. Jensen was phenomenal last night playing grumpy I love you despite the fact that you hurt me and abandoned me Dean.
        Castiel suddenly behaving like Mary (and Dean) and decided he would face Dagon to protect the Winchesters was whiplash inducing. Yeah it mirrors what Mary has been up to however that is a fully developed arc. It would make more sense for Cas to be idolizing Joshua because Joshua deserves respect or for Cas to work with heaven and the Winchesters since they had common goals. Nothing in Cas’ storylines make sense.

        Except of course his magical sublimation be the fabulous fetus. Somehow I think the future Lil Lucy will bring is a mirror to the bizzaro Apocalypse.

        Very on point TFW reference, one of many Apocalypse references all season. Of course they are now bizzaro TFW. Mom’s on a hunting trip. Crowley has Dean’s back. Castiel is rogue. Michael is in the cage and Lucifer wants nothing to do with Sam.

  27. I dvr’d Midnight, Texas on Monday and ‘finally’ watched it tonight. Christopher Heyerdahl shows up next week as The Big Bad. Even my husband squealed (well, he said, OH HIM, good actor).

    I looked it up and it is being shot in NM: I recognized two sets! One was the entrance to Isleta Pueblo Gaming and the other was a road south and a little west of Albuquerque (or as we call it here, ABQ). I ‘love’ things shot in NM.

    Oh, I don’t know one way or the other if this is true but I read that From Dusk to Dawn: The Series (also filmed in NM, and I picked out the biker bar — with the signage No Colors! — called Silva’s Saloon on US66 (yeah, we got Route 66 all over the place here even if it is called something else) has not yet been renewed. Oh pooey. That thing is filmed on a thread, not even a shoestring. Hope they bring it back.

    But again, Christopher Heyerdahl is back on a series. Yippee. He was his very disconcerting scary self in the previews.

    1. I haven’t seen Midnight, Texas, yet. Still binge-watching Relic Hunter and Hooten and the Lady (the latter having improved only minimally). I’m way behind on From Dusk Until Dawn. End of season two, I think?

        1. Are you talking Midnight, Texas or From Dusk to Dawn?

          OK: I got a ‘speculation’ about Game of Thrones. Drogon seems to like Jon Snow. Now that Visarion (?) is gone, I ‘see’ Drogon rushing into the great hall of Dragonstone, doing that thing when he surrounds Dany with his wings and pulls in Jon and HOWLS while he ‘holds’ them. They get the idea he wants them to be ‘together’ so they ‘do it’ because Drogon seems SO agitated. After they do IT the dragons both howl and run around to the Dragon Crypt and lay copious amounts of eggs. And ‘this’ is how the cast discovers that in order for the dragons to lay eggs their ‘familiars’ need to have sex. (Now nobody will still know that Jon is a Targaryen.) And ‘that’ is why the Targaryen kings and queens always practiced incest. That was to facilitate/cause the dragons to procreate as well (it was a secret the family kept from all outsiders); don’t know ‘why’ dragons stopped being laying eggs– and I don’t get if the dragons are asexual or not, I think I read that someplace, maybe there was a couple of generations in there where various Targaryen spouses did NOT like each other no matter what. Anyway, if they are going for sex, let’s see sex in the throne room.

          1. Midnight, Texas ‘is’ on NBC on Monday nights at 9pm Mountain Time. I don’t know how it would be in your area. I never can figure out how 9pm shows are in different time zones.

  28. I just watched About A Boy and I wondered if Dean hulked out at the end, when he squeezed the hex bag and became adult Dean. It seemed Hansel had no ability to defend himself and the Witch had no recourse to magic for the 30sec or so when Dean stuffed her into the oven.

    I could not figure out ‘why’ Dean stuffed the hex bag into her mouth (he had that intent look he gets when he is ‘going’ MEGA imo) knowing that Tina still needed it.

    I was watch Hibbing 911 yesterday and I have to say I would like Donna ‘with’ Dean and also Tina. She just seems worldly wise to me and I like how calm she was with all the witch craziness.

    1. I think the low growling, and all the previous conversation about the Mark being dormant when he was “younger,” is intended to indicate that he does “hulk out” when he changes back. My impression was that he stuffs the bag into the Witch’s mouth so that she can’t utter any spell before he shoves her into the oven. In the heat of the moment, either he doesn’t think to rescue it or there’s no time.

      Donna would be good for Dean and vice versa. Dean appreciates Donna for what she is.

    2. I always wondered about that episode. If de-aging actually removed the Mark, or at least made it go dormant – I suppose it might still have been affecting his soul – why did no one later pursue the idea of paying some witch to de-age him again ? It would only need to be by a few years. Of course, there might be good reasons not to pursue it and I’m sure Dean was aware of every single one. But really, de-aging was no more hairbrained than the plan Sam eventually settled on, and it might have bought Sam some time to search out a better solution. After all, it showed that Sam was willing to work with a witch. The fact that the de-aging solution never came up again, if only to consider and reject, seemed like a plot hole to me.

      1. It was a little silly, anyway, but the story logic appears to be that witches jealously guard their trade secrets and the knowledge of how to make such a bag died with that particular witch. It’s possible Dean intentionally destroyed the hex bag because he was wary of its tempting Sam later on.

        1. Possibly, and I can see Dean being concerned about Sam and temptation. But even if individual spell work is proprietary, concepts generally are not. I find it hard to believe that no other witch in that world was able to come up with something that produced similar results.

          1. You would think, but then, we’ve had too many instances of a witch (especially in later Rowena-centered stories) coming up with something completely proprietary that no other witch can copy unless she (or he) has that witch’s grimoire. Witch powers are extremely idiosyncratic and arbitrary, which is part of the reason why they are kind of a copout as an MOTW. They give the writers way too much rope.

  29. second time this happened: I wrote out a response and got a ‘error in establishing database.’ I rewrote the comment and it worked.

    Claire’s character is so like Dean’s to me: she finds validation in hunting and ‘saving people’ because her whole life was torn apart for the ‘greater good’ and just knowing that GOOD came of it (Castiel assisted in stopping the Apocalypse) she was still screwed. Like Dean’s little coda in Wendigo, her life was so screwed up she figures she might as well save ‘others’ from what she had gone thru. She was written to be Young Girl Dean.

    1. Claire is a lighter version of Dean. Not to diminish Claire’s suffering, which was significant, but at least she had eleven happy years in which to establish her personality and she did eventually find her way to a new loving family. External support is something he has never really had.

    2. Yes. Show has established that clearly. And Alex is Sam. She’s in nursing school but will get dragged into hunting in time for Wayward Daughters. Who wants to put money on Jody goes missing on a hunt.
      We already know Claire is a female Dean. She has been since her introduction and they doubled down on that premise with each subsequent appearance. We also know that she wants to hunt, lives to hunt and that she and Dean share a bond because they get each other and he can effectively parent her when others cannot because he was her and he doesn’t infantilize her even as he takes away her beer.
      The episode served no purpose except to say hi Claire and whoa Mick is actually really bad at his job and Dean is really always the smartest one in the room because he saw through Mick immediately.

    1. There was no point to this episode really. We learned nothing that we didn’t already know. It’s only purpose was to give Mick a character arc which is stupid because someone that succeeded in the BMOL has already chosen the organization over heart and soul. Mamby Pamby micky would have been taken out by someone stronger with ambition long ago.
      Why wasn’t Crowley given a few episodes that explored him and hisee poignant arc.

      1. Oh, I don’t know. That school and it’s initiation rites crossed the line into sheer and utter nonsense, but if the indoctrination storyline had been presented more subtly, I could have bought it. Believing that what you are doing is right and good is a powerful incentive, and I could see a man in that position only gradually and belatedly asking questions about it. It’s just that there is just no way to present forcing children to kill children as anything but evil. Since he was the only one who was presented as having a scrap of conscience, he should have figured out they were bad news years earlier.

        1. Right now I see the analogy to the play GOOD which I saw in Costa Mesa about 30yr ago. It is a man who is a professor of Philosophy in Germany. He and his wife are ‘good’ people. However her dementia-ill mother is living with them and making their life holy hell. He writes a paper that sometimes ‘some’ people have to be ‘excised’ from the world because they are useless and an actual drain. (The law would not do anything to hasten MIL’s death yet Prof believes in every essential way she IS dead.) From this he gets Nazi approval. They use his thesis to justify getting rid of the old, the sick, the ‘infirm’ (which includes people of the ‘wrong’ background pretty quickly) and then those considered a ‘blight’ on the body politic, ie Germany. The last scene has this ‘good’ man putting on a Nazi SS uniform and walking out to a Nuremberg rally.

          You are right that ‘telling’ people what they are doing is right and holy can get them to do awful awful things. I suggest that when Mick killed his friend at the school, he added up the costs/benefits/risks to HIMSELF (his friend spoke of THEM, I remember the friend was also trying to get Mick out) because he had nowhere else to go and so murdered his friend. After that his commitment was total (until it wasn’t, after he met The Winchesters; I swear Dean could convince almost anyone of anything in the show’s orbit) and he was the ‘soft face’ compared to Lady Toni and Dr Hess. He could ‘convince’ people to do stuff in a nice fashion, and then they were in and that was that. Now MAYBE it was the killing of were-wolf girl and that was the first time he had killed anyone (not an actual monster monster, not a girl becoming a monster) in the name of the Cause. But it seemed like that to me.

  30. The hideous Man and His Girl Dog is on right now. UGH. Anyway, was it ever thought that ‘this’ could’ve been another unrealized ‘back-door pilot for another show’ because it fits nowhere in the year, I mean, I know there are ‘always’ one-offs but THIS one-off is just so random it’s too random.

    So the series would be set in Chicago where there WITCH COVENS running a secret society had fun bars and such. There was a hot man-witch detective (I think I can safely say he was chosen to be attractive) with his BLACK (dog) girlfriend. Hits many demographics. I have noticed over the years that there are a whole bunch of SPN episodes set in Chicago. AND that Bloodlines was set up to be in Chicago.

    It all boils down to me thinking there is some writer who has a jones for using Chicago as the back-drop and trying to set up a spin-off.

    I turned on the tv, saw Portia as a Doberman and I just said NOPE. Now if it turns out because I am a coward and could not dvr back to the beginning of the episode and this is NOT set in Chicago…well, I guess I made no point in this comment. But I just ‘can’t’ with this show.

  31. I like you, Paula, if only because YOU know what I mean when I say this is the sort of stuff Catholic kids in ‘catechism class’ ask when a priest shows up to ‘explain’ stuff.

    I did think of beer used as holy water exclusively (not just put IN holy water) or spit. We had all kinds of stupid things we asked Pastor Murphy.

    1. Well, I was baptized Catholic, went to a Catholic college, and just got confirmed Episcopalian. So, I’m fairly up on my catechism stuff. What’s depressing is the number of people who are Catholic, went through catechism, and don’t remember of it.

      1. Congratulations on your confirmation. I’ve attended an Episcopalian church for the past two years myself. The liturgy is lovely, though I have yet to be brave enough to consider confirmation.

    2. Beer or spit as Holy Water. Heh. I’m intrigued by the whole concept of Holy Water, concept , manufacture and purposes. The religious tradition I spent 30 plus years in had no such equivalent.

      1. I am guessing Judaism based on the way you spell your name.
        They cast out demons in Judaism too. What do they use besides holy scripture.

        1. I often times wonder how non-Catholics view Catholic mysticism because it is ‘our’ rituals that get used in these supernatural type shows.

          I will say that Jared Padalecki has learned to pronounce the Exorciamus te…. VERY WELL.

        2. Not Judaism, but evangelical christianity with a side of fundamentalism. My mother had a thing for bible names. There was much talk at church of demons, and deliverances were via prayer alone, although I never saw any such thing. It took me decades to get the guts to leave.

          1. Interesting. Yes I guess Evangelicals don’t borrow from Catholicism. We were horrified to find out that some don’t even know Catholics are Christians.

      2. I often times wonder what non-Catholics think of Catholics when they see so many ‘supernatural-type’ shows using Catholic practices (like the rosaries, or just saying In nomine Patris et filius et spiritus sanctus and VOILA! it’s holy water!) which are the most-used ‘backgrounds’ of any demony-ghosty-monstery show.

        Heck, I am still thrown that the Latin I learned in HS/College was the wrong pronunciation (they decided Italianate pronunciation is wrong a German pronunciation is right based on GRAFFITI which spelled out words that kids did not know how to spell so they sounded it out!) and thus VENI VIDI VICI is pronounced WENI WIDI WICKI.

        1. It depends on the person, and their background I suppose. My own was fairly strict, and we probably wouldn’t have watched a show like Supernatural at all. Fantasy, scifi, and horror were all pretty much discouraged.

          And yes, “Catholics aren’t Christians” is a thing. I remember being taught that as a teenager, and it was the first thing that tripped my nonsense meter. It wasn’t the last.

          1. So they just ignore the fact that the church. That Peter was charged by Christopher to found is the Catholic church.

        2. I was baptized Episcopal. My mom’s family are Catholic. Italian Catholics so there was an emphasis on the supernatural in the family. I have been told I bear rhe family mark that protects me from demon possession for instance.
          My husband was raised Catholic and we ate the godparents to one nephew. I was gobsmacked during the ceremony that I was expected to save my godson from Satan and his minions. That is a lot to ask of anyone in my opinion.

  32. I think I am going to ask my priest if you could make Holy Water out of BEER. I seem to remember in childhood being told that if somebody was DYING and they wanted to be BAPTIZED beer would do in a pinch (The ‘things’ 5th graders ask the Pastor during his weekly visitations to the classroom!) but I don’t know if that is true. Heck, they had ICE buckets in the kitchen Unless Camiel (or whatever) also threw out the beer and the ice bucket, ice can melt pretty fast if you put it in a pot and turn the HEAT on.

    I think the devils’ trap was an interesting work-around, but I am still stuck on the water issue. Don’t worry, I am going to sleep soon and I won’t bring it up again. It’s just, it bugs me now.

    1. I don’t see why not. Bobby put holy water in beer to trick Meg in “Born Under a Bad Sign” and the beer didn’t affect the water’s holiness.

      Hell, they even had spit.

  33. I got relatives visiting. My granddaughter said early in the am (SPN is on TNT from 8am to 12noon or 1pm) OH we get to watch SPN. Thank you, gramma.

    My son came up and we were watching the Golem episode so husband Pete said, let’s watch the Let’s Kill Hitler episode. So I put that one on and my son said, that was such a FUN episode, it was fun to watch. (He said the same thing about the next episode which is the Asa Fox episode because it started off with Dean saying, I killed Hitler. Hey, I got a question: EVEN if the water was off, shouldn’t there have been water in the tanks? I lose water all the time in my rural area and even if the water is SOLIDLY off — not even a trickle — there is always water in the tank…heck, in the TOILET itself if they want to make holy water. Or were they saying that Stunt Demon also disappeared all the water? Just a plot hole in my eyes.

    1. The whole water thing was a big plothole in that episode. The writing tried much too hard to make a garden-variety demon that dangerous against a bunch of Hunters at this late date.

  34. I read io9.gizmodo.com and they had Winners and Losers from Comic Con and THEY said that Supernatural was one of the Winners because of the Kansas appearance.

    Said it was ‘incredibly’ energizing. (Also said the show did not have a lot to say about what is going on ON the show.) So the response to the Kansas appearance was ‘super’ positive.

    1. The general opinion is that the Kansas appearance was great and iconic and a good time had by all, including Kansas. However, it was in place of the usual clip and the panel was a tad light on spoilers or even direction for the season. This show is fairly notorious for throwing in a rock song and “epic” moment whenever it knows it’s lacking some substance or the writing is crap (AC/DC’s “For Those About to Rock” at the end of “Slumber Party,” for example).

      So, Kansas appearance great as a rock moment, not so great as a sign of the upcoming season.

      1. Yeah. Kansas was bells and whistles.
        It’s so sad and so bad if the reason is they really don’t know where the season is going because despite Dabbler and hacks and Singer- the crusher of greatness, they actually set up an interesting premise with legs. Not only are we exploring the Winchester psychology through Mary and Dean’s psychology which derives from the tragic loss of Mary, they have the opportunity to show the Winchesters that they matter and what they do does matter via a f’D up it’s so NOT a wonderful life bizzaro Apocalypse scenario. AND they can use it to bring back some great characters that died too soon because showrunners can be stupid Dicks.
        AND they set up Dean frantic to save Mary at any cost Mary!Lucifer and Dean! Michael beautifully.

        So the umm… yeah… so here’s Kansas is disconcerting.

        I want to believe that they don’t want to give anything away but the Scoobie episode but Singer has a track record of seeing the show exclusively in the framework of the original character bullets from 2004; ie. Sam is the hero.

        2. Dabb could be Kripke double downed. He could have accidentally set up this great premise but is sticking with his original idea which is Sam centric and meh. The argument against this is that he had no idea what to do with Sam last season except to tie him in a chair and torture him and have him be sympathetic to Mary and all the women I’m peril they encountered. Of course at this point Singer could have decided Sam needs to save the day.
        And yeah. Dean could be in one of his I give up funks… in which case there had better be a shirtless Dean and Baby Montage set to some kickass mope rock.

        3. Singer decide they will pull a Sleepy Hollow and they will ignore every mytharc implication they set up, rescue Mary immediately as well as fan favs Bobby and charlie and proceed to a case a week until the show ends.

        I am liking the season better on rematch because Dabb really did telescope the Apocalypse so well and of course the fact that Mary and Dean’s relationship and respective psychologies were so important. They emphasized mother/child dynamics and family, family lineages so well.
        Just every episode was more or less meh except when the acting transcending the writing.
        In that regard I put Letch pretty high up in the pantheon of villians. That man can act and his interest in Mary and by extension Dean makes my skin crawl in a way only Azazel and Alastair managed to do. I like the actor so much I would love to see a bizarrof Letch that still has the hots for Mary but belongs to an honorable BMOL. Make him an out of step foppish Wesley Wyndham Price kind of character. Nails on chalkboard to Dean.

        1. The problem is not just the ideas the showrunners are coming up with. They’re not *all* bad. It’s that the writing of those ideas stinks at the episode level. And that’s a huge problem because it doesn’t matter how good the ideas sound or are if the execution blows.

        2. I agree season 12 is better on rewatch. You can take your focus off the larger plot arc, which made no sense, and attend to the psychological details which were pretty good. And I did enjoy a lot of the MOW episodes, plot holes and all.

          I don’t need convincing that Dean thinks Mary is dead, so much that he thinks the danger to the rest of the world is too great to give in to what he might want, in bringing Mary back. But I’m sure she will be back. I’d kind of like to see her rescue herself. She’s smart and resourceful.

          I’d like to see them do something with Sam’s emotional development. I actually think the character of Sam is interesting from a thematic point of view, as a sort of compare and contrast of Sam’s apparent “niceness” to Dean’s genuine, but surly goodness. My own family members have a hard time seeing past this and often think Sam the more heroic and good character. But if you pay attention, the evidence has never supported this.

          That said, it would be nice to see Sam grow up. Clearly this can’t be in the form of heroic gestures, given his track record, but growth in the areas of gratitude, humility and responsibility are wide open for any character. And there has been some slow movement in that direction. In real life, effecting lasting change tends to be a slow one step forward, three quarters of a step back process. I’d probably be more frustrated with the process if I’d watched the show slowly over twelve seasons instead of binge watching it for two years on Netflix.

          1. I agree about Sam. It was refreshing to have him take responsibility finally for how he treated Sully and Dean. I was pleased overall with Carver’s character Exploration of both brothers that culminated in a redemption archaeological for Sam and acknowledgement by Chuck that what Dean does makes a difference; Dean makes a difference.

            I think the current writers have absolutely no idea how to write Sam. Opening the season with two episodes of hurt Sam conservation plate with obligatory Sam pimping was surreal to the brink of parody. Then he is just there more or less rolling his eyes over classic Deanisms and being sympathetic to female monsters or monster adjacent young ladies.
            Having him decide the MoL was the future after they proved to be clueless fops during that vampire raid made no sense. Whining that small victories don’t count because Lucifer is on us… well that’s Major backsliding in the character growth department. Sam displayed more maturity than Lucifer I suppose…
            However Sam’s season 12 arc was pitiful compared to that of Crowley , Mary and Dean. And Crowley was short changed by the
            Castiel is another character that no one knows how to write, however Misha’s performance does more to connect the dots than Jared’s does.
            Dean was trapped in an alternate plane and abandoned by Sam in season 8. It was the main point of contention. Furthermore Dean was manic about Mary in season 12 and risked his life to save her more than once. This is why I cannot believe Dean is not doing everything he can do to save her which means sacrificing himself to effect her rescue.
            I get he made need a rock fueled shirtless car maintenance Montage and a lot of whiskey. But then he should dust himself off and try to find a way to save her that won’t risk the world.
            What is risk they fear anyway. The rift was opened and closed without any world burning issues. Just make sure you have a plan that will kill Lucifer before you open it. And the only thing they know will work is Michael’s Lance, and of course they need Michael to repair it first. We already know that THE cage is damaged. And for all we know it wasn’t designed to hold Michael. Michael may need his own get out of funk montage or a pretty speech from Dean to get his Mojo back.
            So yeah. Sam being Gung ho about saving Mary and Dean wanting to go back to business as usual doesn’t make sense. Hopefully it is a red herring/alternative fact.

          2. When TNT got around to Season 1 (I began my watch at the end of Season 4) I was surprised that from the beginning the scripts (!) actually had Sam do that ‘concerned’ thing with the family in Wendigo and THEN when they got bac to their motel complained bitterly to Dean about ‘babysitting the civilians’ and ‘I gotta find Dad.’ That opened me up to what I see as Sam’s essentially ‘outsider’ nature: in Season 1 I could see he was faking a lot of his interactions with non-family (ie non-Dean) people. Not attractive, yet my husband said when he began the rewatch with me that the show was ‘very’ much Sam’s Story, we learned about the supernatural thru Sam and were supposed to empathize with Sam’s Issues. BUT Pete said pretty quickly we saw how Dean was ‘watching out’ for Sam and that he was an interesting gravity point as well, it became more even after first 1/3 of Season 1.

  35. I do not see why alt-Michael would be where dead Cas is unless alt-Michael is dead. Thinking it would be a dead angel, arc-angel or Death.
    Angels are multi-dimensional beings. Not sure that they should have alt versions.
    Dabb is not a deep thinker. Neither is Singer.
    It makes no sense for Dean to abandon Mary Like that which is exactly what Sam did in season 8 and tried to do in season 1. Dean is all about family and repeatedly risked h8mself to save her and Sam last season.
    Depression notwithstanding, they have to convince me that he is sure she is dead. I agree that opening the rift is dangerous and Dean would know Mary wouldn’t want them to sacrifice the world to save her.
    However the way it’s described doesn’t sound like Dean…
    Of course…

    They may be setting him up to do a reckless sacrifice like saying yes to Michael .

    Dean! MICHAEL is my new Phoenix Dean.

    Sam never learns does he. If he endangers the world again and then shrugs and,says it is on us, Dean should just shoot him.

    I liked 12 better in repeat because somehow Dabb delivered thematically even if the writing sucked, the lol made no sense and they shafted Mark Shepherd and Crowley . I still have no faith in Singer and Dabb.

  36. Talking about Jack possibly inheriting some of Kelly’s “goodness” is nauseating. She waffled on ending a pregnancy while it was still feasible to do so, but then failed to embrace the decision to have the child or prepare accordingly; she sought assistance from a demon, but then whined about her fate when it was clearly her choices that led to it; she attempted murder/suicide. Even when Jack “saved” her, she continued to frame things in terms of what he could do for her, rather than what responsibility she might have toward him. I’m sorry, but building a crib is not evidence of goodness. Since Jack had in utero awareness, I would imagine he would be pretty ambivalent toward his mother and have no desire to bring her back. That awareness also prevents him from being a truly blank slate.

    What unexplored realm could Castiel be stuck in? The only ones I can think of are Faerie and the Void.

    Sam identifying with the monster sounds like business as usual. He just can’t quite get past himself, even if he damns the world in the process. It would be nice to see him acknowledge how much he owes Dean, but let’s hope he does it in terms of, say, actual emotional support instead of big heroic gestures.

    I would normally agree that Dean not going after Mary seems OOC, but Dean ended the season at a pretty low point. In the past, he had been pretty damn pessimistic and fatalistic when at his most depressed. This seems more like a reboot of season 7.

    1. A lot of it does sound like business as usual. And the way they kept banging away at how it was Mary’s choice to sacrifice herself and how dangerous it is to open the rift back up, Sam’s desire to endanger the entire world to save Mary sounds a lot less loving and altruistic, and more like…uh…Sam.

      I agree about Kelly. She had a moral compass about as strong as a paper plate in the wind. And Jack has this whole plan he gave to Castiel while still in utero. Jack’s not a blank slate. He’s already got a path and the path ain’t good.

      I wish they’d just gone with Sam being brainwashed like Castiel. It would be less stupid.

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