Supernatural -- "Various & Sundry Villians" -- Image Number: SN1312a_0027b.jpg -- Pictured (L-R): Jordan Claire Robbins as Jamie Plum and Jensen Ackles as Dean -- Photo: Dean Buscher/The CW -- © 2018 The CW Network, LLC All Rights Reserved

The Official Supernatural: “Various and Sundry Villains” (13.12) Live Recap Thread

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Starting now.

Then recap of “Regarding Dean” last season and then bringing us up to speed with Lucifer’s depowering subplot this season. I sure hope the last time we see Asmodeus this week is in the recap because bleah.

Cut to Now on I-135 Just North of Wichita, KS. A guy named Dale walks into a liquor store and exchanges grunts with the store clerk (indicating they know each other). He sees two blondes giggling in the security camera and goes over to investigate. They are, of course, pretty blondes. And once one of them slips a hex bag in his coat pocket while the other one says a spell in Latin, he immediately falls in love.

They then ask him where Lebanon, KS is (he says he’s never heard of it, which seems unlikely) and then they con him into robbing the liquor store and giving them all the money and booze. He also kills the clerk, Marty.

When he comes out, they brain him with a sledgehammer, because their mother always told them to make deaths “look non-magical” so as to avoid attracting the attention of Hunters. Which is fortunate, since these two girls don’t look as though they’ve got a lot going on upstairs, in addition to being spree-killer witches. Also, the actresses are overdoing it just a tad.

Cue title cards.

Sam’s working at a table in the Bunker. Dean walks in from another room with some books from the MoL library he’s found on otherworldly dimensions. He struggles with one called “Jour et Nuit,” despite having no trouble with the Latin titles of the others, and Sam has to tell him it’s French and pronounce it correctly. Either this is bad writing or the show’s portraying Sam as pretty naive here, since Dean wouldn’t have been able to determine that any of these books were about otherworldly dimensions unless, y’know, he could read Latin and French (and we already know he can read Latin). Which means he’s just messing with Sam to get Sam to look through the books for a way to find Jack so that he can go out on a beer run.

Oh, and by the way, Sam is still in full-on Negative Nelly mode. Because it’s halfway through the season and reasons.

There is also a brief discussion about how “Castiel” checks in every day, as we see Castiel in prison, being taunted by one of Asmodeus’ demons. The demon (named “Dipper” for Idon’tcarewhatreason) also taunts Lucifer, who is annoyed that his jail cell is too warded for him to escape. For the moment. Boy, demons sure are stupid on this show, aren’t they?

After the demon leaves, Castiel mocks Lucifer (because Colonel Sanders – sorry, Asmodeus – is so “smart” that he allowed his two captive angels to be in adjoining cells so they could plot their escape) and Lucifer tries to get Castiel to give him some of his grace so they can both escape. Castiel’s not buying it, not even when Lucifer brings up his own grace-eating days. Castiel also mocks Lucifer when Lucifer calls Asmodeus his “weakest creation,” even after admitting that Asmodeus managed to learn shapeshifting/illusion on his own. Castiel wonders aloud that if Lucifer is being imprisoned by his weakest creation, what does that make him?

Dean is returning from his beer run when he encounters the witches from the teaser in the parking lot (they sure do hang around liquor stores a lot). One sister is screaming for help for the other sister, then slips a hex bag in his coat pocket when he leans over the other sister to help and says the Latin words (“Aegrota amore”) again. As with Dale, Dean’s eyes glow pink and he becomes putty in the women’s hands, kissing the “injured” sister at the first one’s suggestion.

It turns out they know his name and were looking for him. Being under the spell, Dean does not see this as odd.

Sam greets Dean as he comes back into the Bunker. Dean is giddy and “twitter-pated” (his own words). He talks about being in love and would be charmingly goofy if the show weren’t playing what is basically roofie-rape for laughs. Sam starts to realize this is not one of Dean’s usual volatile moods when Dean takes out the Black Grimoire and starts to walk out with it, declaring that it’s a “gift” for his new lady-love, Jamie.

I gotta give Sam credit here for twigging very quickly something’s wrong and trying to handle Dean with kid gloves (since Dean, already volatile, can be extremely dangerous under a spell of compulsion like this). He mentions Becky and the love spell, but Dean starts to turn scary, all while smiling and sunny and basically channeling Clayne Crawford in Lethal Weapon (no, really; Ackles gets him just about dead-on). Sam manages to snag the keys, so Dean says he’ll just walk. Sam tries to grab his arm, and that’s when Dean whips around and cold-cocks him. Knocks him right out. He does say to an unconscious Sam as he walks off that he will give him an ice pack after he returns. Not even the strongest love spell seems capable of subsuming his brotherly instincts.

I have to laugh at the people who are complaining and wondering since when has Dean been stronger than Sam? Um, I dunno, since always? The only time Sam was able to beat Dean was when he was drunk on demon blood and Dean didn’t want to fight him in “When the Levee Breaks.” In fact, it was a major plot point that Sam was able to beat Dean under those circumstances when he never could, otherwise.

The other thing is that it’s never been fully resolved how fully human Dean remains after a year in Purgatory and having the MoC. Chuck did say that Dean would be forever “tainted” by it and Dean did retain abilities specific to Amara in season 11. And we know Dean is still able to do things like fight multiple demons at once, which ought to be beyond human capacity.

Dean arrives back at the parking lot with the book. The sisters are smiling, though one of the girls grumps that they wanted the Impala, too (no shocker that was a no-go for Dean, even under compulsion). They were just discussing in Valley-speak whether to “make the call” and the younger one says she won’t. They’re just going to use the book for their own purposes and not call whomever they apparently stole it for.

They are about to brain Dean with the sledgehammer when Sam shows up in the Impala and comes out, gun drawn. But Dean attacks him and knocks him over as Sam tries to get the hex bag out (having figured out the situation pretty quickly, despite his concussion).

Then the sisters do a very, very stupid thing for which I lose all respect for them as villains – they just drive away. They don’t try to kill the Brothers. They just leave.

Anyhoo, Sam gets the hex bag out (it’s pink, of course), but before he can burn it, Dean starts to choke him out, while apologizing. But then the bag burns and the spell breaks in a pink flash. And Rowena shows up.

Cut back to Lucifer (because sure, now that Rowena’s back from the dead, what I wanted to see was more played-out Lucifer, but at least we get some Castiel mocking him, so there’s that). Lucifer is trying to make a stick lift, though apparently unable to (hmm). Dipper comes past and tells Castiel Asmodeus has “big plans” for him once he returns.

Lucifer yells after the departing demon that alt-Michael will come over from the other ‘verse and kill them all. We then get a very odd bit of infodump. Lucifer proceeds to As-You-Know-Bob to Castiel that no matter the version of Michael in whatever universe, Michael is ruthless and determined and tunnel-visioned and will get over to the SPNverse by sheer force of will.

This makes no sense for two reasons. One is that Castiel is also an angel and knows perfectly well what Michael is like. Yes, Lucifer has had an encounter with alt-verse Michael that Castiel hasn’t, but Castiel hardly needs to pump Lucifer for info about what all versions of Michael have in common.

Second, if Michael is so scary and determined and blahblahblah, why is this universe’s version of him still in the damned Cage?

Lucifer then starts talking about how much alt-Michael is torturing Mary and how it’s like nothing he’s ever seen. Dear God, I am so tired of this show’s ongoing obsession with comparisons of who got tortured the most.

Anyhoo, Castiel finally shuts him up with talking about Jack, how Jack is a lot like his mother and wants to do good, and how Jack resurrected Castiel from the Empty. Lucifer is so mad that he finally is able to TK the stick into the wall. Which gives him an idea.

Cut back to Rowena at the Bunker with the Brothers. Yes, she’s in the Bunker. Also, she’s pouring the three of them whiskeys. Which the Brothers are willing to drink. And nothing bad comes of it.

They ask her how she’s still alive. She’s cagey about just how (and they don’t mention their encounter with Arthur and what he told her about the resurrection device she gave him). She just says that it took a very long time to heal this time round and she doesn’t want to have to go through it again. She admits to having put a tracking spell on the book (hence why she’s there now) and calls Dean “lover” (at which Dean looks less-than-nonplussed and Sam smiles). A joke about “fifth base” in which Rowena teases Dean about his being roofied and supposed lack of sexual expertise fails, though.

There’s also a sad moment when Rowena finds out that Crowley is dead. It’s a nicely gauged mix of emotions as she reacts with both anger and hurt. The Brothers’ insistence that he died a hero doesn’t comfort her, since she’d prefer a “living” (so to speak) son, “even one who hated me,” to one who is dead and gone forever. Of course, there’s her grandson, but he’s in Heaven. Which she can’t reach.

It turns out that what she’s after is a spell in the book that would break a binding the Grand Coven once put on her. Needless to say, Sam and Dean aren’t too thrilled about the idea of just giving her more power. But they do, in the end, agree to work with her to get the book back. And then they’ll talk.

I should probably refresh everyone’s memories that the Black Grimoire is the book of spells the Brothers “liberated” from the Cajun witches Rowena helped them defeat in “Regarding Dean.”

I like this scene. Everyone in it is a thief, murderer and con artist, and they’re all working angles. And yet, you can tell there’s a shared camaraderie. When Rowena claims she’s “changed,” I find myself hoping she really has and I think the Brothers kind of do, too. The two MOTWs seem quite flat in comparison.

So, naturally, guess where we go next? A hardware store where the witches are trying to read the book they stole (they kinda suck at it) and magicking a staff guy. The younger girl, Jennie, seems to have the magical talent, though that’s not saying much. A young African American woman working there calls them out on shoplifting, to which they respond with some downright nasty snootiness. Ooooh, burn.

They then read that they need a human soul for their spell, so they zero in on an innocent young stock boy. I’m guessing, from “Regarding Dean,” they mean the spell the Cajun witches were using to try to resurrect their brother.

Back at a house, they’re reading the book over the body of an older woman. Jamie shows Jennie a photo. They’re in it with the woman. It’s their mom. They have a discussion over Jennie’s uncertainty whether she can work the resurrection spell and how much they miss their mother. This is probably intended to add some depth to their characterization, but between the Valley-speak and the references to how many people their mother murdered in her lifetime (and how many people they are willing to murder now to bring her back) the scene manages to generate no sympathy for them whatsoever.

We then hear a man’s voice from the other side of the room. It’s the poor stock boy, who is completely enspelled. Coolly asking Jamie if they still need that spell (Jamie, of course, says yes), Jenny strolls over the boy and stabs him to death. Then she walks away.

The Brothers and Rowena (in the backseat) arrive in Stillwater, OK. Rowena says that her tracking spell on the book really only works for general location and when it’s moving – and it’s stopped moving. They have to ask around to find the sisters. She offers to interrogate the locals herself, but the Brothers point out that her methods tend to be extreme and fatal. Or extremely fatal. Take your pick.

Sam offers to babysit Rowena in the car, while Dean goes out and does interviews. Rowena makes a final suggestion – that Dean talk to the woman. She says she’s pretty sure “these girls aren’t popular with other women.” We see Dean quickly process this and nod, taking the suggestion on board. Rowena doesn’t insult Dean by asking him if he knows how to talk to women about other women. She knows he can talk to women about all sorts of things. After all, she (and we) are pretty certain he lied about not remembering the conversation she had with him in “Regarding Dean” about Chuck and Amara.

Cut to Castiel and Lucifer. Castiel is entertaining the demon, Dipper, by insulting Lucifer. But this turns out to be a trick. When Dipper goes to mock Lucifer, Lucifer yanks him up against the bars, then reaches through them (despite the sparks) and stabs him in the neck with the stick. This somehow breaks the warding, both on his door and Castiel’s. The demon turns around and gets smote by Castiel.

Naturally, more demons show up, but Lucifer and Castiel somehow have angel swords now, so this ought to be a short fight.

In the car, Rowena is bored and asks for music. Sam points out they only have Dean’s hard rock collection. Exasperated, Rowena says that surely she can “enslave” a few townspeople to tell them what they need to know.

Sam: I’m pretty sure you can. I’m also pretty sure you shouldn’t.

Rowena: Bless your precious little heart. You just described my entire life.

Ah, Rowena, how I missed thee.

In a surprisingly thoughtful moment, Sam gently tells Rowena that even if she gets hold of the book, it won’t help. She’ll still feel “helpless.” Rowena at first doesn’t want to talk about it (her fear of Lucifer is quite genuine). Then she gets teary and admits the scariest part of Lucifer’s burning her alive and crushing her skull – “he showed me his face. His true face. I’m scared, Sam. All the time.”

At that point, Sam admits that he’s seen it, too, and it “still keeps me up at night.” When she asks him how he deals with it, Sam admits that he really doesn’t. Mostly, there’s always a new world-busting crisis, so he just “pushes it down” (much like his brother with his own traumas). He could talk to Dean, whom he knows would listen, but for whatever reason, he never does. In a weird way, I think Sam may actually find comfort that Dean would listen, even if he never unburdens himself to Dean, just as he and Rowena find some comfort in unburdening themselves to each other in this scene. Awww.

Dean goes into the same hardware store where Jamie and Jennie were earlier and he encounters the same clerk who called them out on shoplifting. She’s skeptical at first of his intentions (though she definitely likes the tall drink of water standing in front of her), but when he makes it clear he’s there for revenge not love, she has no problem whatsoever giving up the address of “the Plum sisters,” whom she also calls “a whole mess of trouble.”

“You going to be really mean?” she asks.

“Yeah,” Dean replies, in a tone with a whole lot of intent.

“‘Cause somebody sure needs to be,” she finishes, giving him the address. Can we see her again? I like her.

Sam is telling Rowena that it doesn’t matter if she gets her power back, she’ll always feel helpless, as Dean returns to the car. At that moment, Rowena gets out, claiming to need some fresh air. But when Dean rather stupidly says he has the address, Rowena gets a look at it and then tosses down a hex bag, shouting, “Manete! (Stand!)” before fleeing.

As the Brothers try to get the hex bag (and Dean calls Sam an idiot for letting Rowena get under his guard), Rowena goes to the address. There the two witches are arguing about their spell having gone wrong (the poor clerk is quite dead at this point, still smiling). Rowena comes in and growls at them about not waiting for her. Turns out she was the one they were supposed to call and she had them get the book for her, after telling them about the Winchesters and where it was. But they double-crossed her. Shocker.

Anyhoo, it turns out they already did the spell on their mother and brought her back as a mindless, violent, magic-proof zombie who goes after Rowena. As she barricades herself in another room, they think this is funny because … well … they’re really dumb.

Sam finally manages to get the hex bag and Dean burns it. Then they go after the witches.

Meanwhile, Castiel and Lucifer are escaping from that old sanitorium the show is always using as a set. Lucifer tries to persuade Castiel to give him his grace, then tries to stab it out of him. Instead, Castiel stabs him, saying “This is me learning from my mistakes.”

At their house, the sisters are still mocking Rowena when the Brothers enter. The sisters aren’t terribly impressed by the Brothers’ guns, but Dean unwisely tells them they have witch-killing bullets, so the sisters use a TK spell (one they just learned, I guess) and then go after the Brothers with a knife and a hammer and superstrength. Sam gets his ass kicked, though Dean holds his own pretty well against Jamie (and is even winning), until Jamie calls for help and Jennie hits him in the leg with her hammer.

But the sisters are distracted by Rowena shouting for advice on how to deal with a magical zombie, and Dean suggesting shooting the mother. When Rowena actually does, though, the sisters inexplicably keep going after the Brothers. This gives Rowena time to recover a bit and use an “Impetus Bestiarum” spell (the one she used on that poor prostitute in her second appearance) on them, then compels them to kill each other. Though looking a bit startled, the Brothers don’t make any effort to interfere.

Still favoring his knee from the hammer blow, Dean insists they take the Black Grimoire back. As Sam goes to get it from Rowena, who whispers desperately to Sam that she can’t “feel that helpless again.” She then appears to leave empty-handed, but Dean watches her go with a considering look.

Back at the Bunker, Dean is still hurting and is disgusted at himself for having fallen for a love spell (didn’t see any choice for him in the matter, but okay). But as they drink beers, Dean points out to Sam, “You do know Rowena is not our friend, right?” He then opens the book. The page with the spell on it that Rowena was seeking is missing, torn out. Dean wasn’t fooled.

Sam admits he let her take it and that if she “breaks bad,” he’ll kill her himself. But he feels that if she encounters Lucifer again, he’s on Team Rowena and wants her to be able to “make him suffer.”

Dean accurately pegs this as part of Sam’s depression. Sam says that Rowena’s not the only one who “feels helpless.” He admits that he started the season with a plan that involved Jack, but with Jack gone, he doesn’t know what to do. Dean says calmly, “We’ll figure it out.” Sam asks how, when they have no plan? Dean just steadily says that the two of them will “figure it out.” Sam looks less sure, but doesn’t argue.

In the last scene, Rowena is kneeling inside a pentacle/devil’s trap with candles. She recites in Latin, asking for her “voice” back and ending with “Fiam invicta!” (I am invincible!). She also cuts her throat vertically, though this doesn’t kill her. As she bleeds from her eyes, glowing purple bonds surrounding her break and the candles gutter out. She smiles, totally healed, and then her eyes glow blue. Possibly not an angelic blue (though who knows? Maybe she said yes to Michael in the Cage and that’s how she resurrected), but still a very unsettling color. Also unsettling is the smile.


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150 thoughts on “The Official Supernatural: “Various and Sundry Villains” (13.12) Live Recap Thread”

  1. Ok stupid plot point #1: there would be cameras inside the store. Yes. Then they killed Dale by the pumps. As though there are no cameras on the STREET! And a sledgehammer? Oh yeah, THAT is a weapon of choice for a HUGE number of murderers.

    I felt bad for Dale and the counter guy. I never figured out why the witches had to kill or have killed everybody the came into contact with.

    1. I’m guessing it was for kicks, mostly. Though in the case of one of them, they needed a soul for their mother-resurrecting spell. Remember that souls have magical power.

      And I agree about the CCTV cameras, but there’s a lot of dumb about these women. I don’t buy that they would have made it even as far as they did.

      1. It’s just they are so mean about it. So heedless about their effects. Those are the kind of people who get caught. Remember when Rowena was explaining witch hierarchy to the 2 hookers in Girls, Girls, Girls? I wonder if the two of them were not very powerful and have to work in concert.

        1. I think it’s a given that these two are bottom-feeders, especially without their mother (who sounds as though she was downright cold-blooded).

  2. They are sociopaths and mediocre witches.
    I think the twirl gave Dean away to Sam.
    Their desire to get mom back mirrors that of the Winchesters… so I am doubling down on Mary not being Mary, ie. Michael!Mary.

    It has been too long since I have seen Lethal Weapon. I need more explanation as to who Dean was channeling. Mel Gibson’s character?

    Jensen was sublime in this episode. Rowena is always a joy especially now that she is a true frenemy.

    I thought Jared did a good job two.

  3. I think she said yes to Michael too. They close in on her face which is out up when her eyes go blue so I tbink Michael is on the board. After all she is the o or one that knows how to access him. It is a smart move
    The throat cutting move looked awfully similar to grace removal. I wonder if she had to remove her natural magic and become human to become Michael’s vessel. If so her plan is to kill Lucifer not just protect herself from him. She and Michael have an agreement to kill him, which may explain why Lucifer had to monologue about what a maniacal single minded focused bad dude Michael was. I guess it is possible that Castiel only dealt with middle management like Uriel and Zachariah. One got the feeling that Michael rarely got involved in stuff… The Song Remains the Same being a notable example and of course showing up at Stull to kill Lucifer
    Bully for her to go after this with such gusto.
    I thought the car talk was sweet and heartfelt.
    I got an Ocean’s 11 super thieves vibe from the 3 of the talking.
    Rowena definitely tapped Dean when he was losing his marbles .
    If 4th base is intercourse, 5th base must be anal… Seems like demon Dean did that in his threesomes with Crowley…
    Yeah it was obviously the same book. She wanted it last season too. She’s been planning to off Lucifer for a long while.
    It’s possible she put Michael in a holding cell and he’s been waiting for her to unbjnd herself. I am not sure if he was in her before her eyes went blue or healed her… Cool idea though. Would explain the cagey way she discussed her healing.
    I suppose it is also possible that Rowena used magic ages ago to trap an angel and that is why the coven bound her. IDK. Cool special effect….
    Regardless Rowena alive means she can release Michael if she hasn’t already. I fully expect Dean!Michael to be on the board after AU!Michael/Mary comes back with Jack. I assume Jack can get back without a dream walker because he knows this universe… or Kevin will be able to help.
    Where is Ash with his string theory door opening mojo? He would be an awesome asset.
    And that car talk with Rowena was certainly a prologue for heroic Sam facing Lucifer again to say yes. Lucifer will want his A-game and his OTV. Who knows maybe he can heal his grace in Sam. We do not know what arcangels can do.
    Is Lucifer slowly regaining power? Or was it just anger mojo. He is currently more powerful than a normal angel per Castiel’s stabbing attempt.
    I reckon Sister Jo is a fallen angel using its powers to heal, hence Lucifer shows up to steal grace.
    Glad the sisters are dead. Glad Rowena isn’t. Maybe Ferrrgus can be resurrected.
    It is looking like we are going to get a fully loaded Winchester Apocalypse.

    1. CC I looked ‘5th base’ up on Urban Dictionary and it ‘is’ anal.

      They had interesting ways to describe it too. So I actually learned something from the show!

      OK I can buy that she deleted her ‘natural’ witch magic and then ‘took in’ Michael. That is actually a very cool idea.

      Like you, though, I don’t want anybody to get between Michael and Dean because I want Michael!Dean to fight AU!Michael sometime this decade.

      I thought the sisters were still in Lebanon and did not get that everybody moved the action to Stillwater OK (where mama’s body was rotting) which is where the clerk who knew them was. I thought all the action was still in Lebanon.

      Maybe the sisters ‘felt’ Rowena was coming and got out of there because they were greedy little shits who did not want to share the Black Grimoire and thus ran away rather than finish off Sam and Dean?

      They were just So STUPID it was offensive to stupid people everywhere. There was nothing appealing about them, I did not care that they loved their mama. ALL of them deserved to die.

      And I liked Hardware Clerk a lot too. Sassy. You know, she was the only person we saw the sisters interact with they did not either kill or try to kill?

      1. Yeah, I figured it was anal even before I looked it up. What I don’t buy is that Dean’s never done it. Dean’s worn women’s underwear and engaged in threesomes with the King of Hell, to the point the King of Hell became quite romantically obsessed with him. While I’m sure there are some things Dean hasn’t done or heard of, or even would not agree to do, I don’t buy that anal (which really isn’t all that exotic) is one of them.

        I think the idea with the sisters was that they were so anxious to resurrect their mother that they just high-tailed it back to Stillwater. They were remarkably stupid, though. And viciously uncaring about the people they murdered.

        1. Are we sure about the threesomes with Crowley? I know they were sharing a room at the sleazy bar Marie worked but that is some tough territory, two guys and a gal (or heck three guys I don’t judge) just does not seem like Dean’s comfort zone. Of course I don’t know what Demon!Dean’s comfort zone is.

          Also I just watched Into the Mystic and I remember at the time people said that the Samulet was in Sam’s ‘memory box’ at the end and I just did not see it, I saw a crucifix and a leather ‘circlet’ now THAT could have been the Samulet but I did not actually see the little horned deity. Was the leather circlet the Samulet’s ‘tell’ in this and other’s saw the little horned deity? You know the Amara Season is a damn GOOD season week after week. Really good writing and I like Dee Wallace (Stone?) in the episode, and EILEEN, oh I love Eileen. VERY good writing the whole season. I can’t think of an episode I avoid (like Remember the Titans or Man’s Best Friend with Benefits — episodes to AVOID if one does not want to bang one’s head like Dean when the Banshee came after him). Golly, they had a BUNCH of crap in Season 8.

          1. Yeah, we’re sure about threesomes with Crowley. Though technically, what Crowley actually talks about is an orgy. Also, we know Dean had a threesome with twins at the beginning of season three.

            I think the amulet just plain disappeared for the years between when Dean dropped it in the trash and when it popped up in Sam’s pocket. It would take some creative fanon-ing to come up with explanations for that plothole.

          2. Misha and his wife were engaged in a long time threesome and she wrote a published book on how to make threesomes work in the bedroom.
            I thought they references a threesome at some point during the demonic romance.
            According to my husband the devil’s threesome is two men and one women.
            I turned one down in high school. I regret that now. Back then I was not comfortable with my body.

    2. Doesn’t Sam have some remaining grace left behind by Gadreel? I know Cas didn’t get it all out with the Angelic Grace Extractor – aka hypodermic needle. Perhaps when/if Lucifer hops back aboard the Sam train what remains will be just the amount he needs.

      As far as Rowena taking advantage of Dean in his altered state? Personally I don’t think so. Tho she probably thought about it.

      Thought the two actresses portraying the witch sisters were pretty and beyond that, pretty bland. Don’t know if it was the direction they were given or what but for such twins of evil I couldn’t have been less moved. Camp after last weeks horror? I think I’ve got whiplash…

        1. I thought they were discussing a reboot. It is on before Supernatural on TNT so I get some bits of an episode and I just gave up on that series when they dumped Shannon Doherty. Maybe I would’ve cottoned to Rose Magowan if they had SHOWN Doherty’s death and then the funeral. I never ever warmed up to Magowan. Could not watch after that.

          So now the reboot is ok’d?

          1. I know they ordered the Charmed reboot to pilot 11 days ago. Keeping in mind the usual time to film an episode and get it through post-production (6-8 weeks), we likely won’t know its fate until the end of March.

            I get what you’re saying about their killing off Pru, after years of making her a major character and giving her so much screentime. But it sounds as though Doherty’s bad behavior just made it all too untenable.

          2. I just wanted the house abd Phoebe’s clothes and Phoebe’s body and Cole all for myself. Ut mostly I want ed the house.

  4. I thought Cas’ plan all along was to get Lucifer angry. Angel powers often manifest when they are angry it seems.
    It seems Lucifer is regaining power slowly though doesn’t it.
    Did Cas seen a little weird to anyone else.
    With all of the repeating masks and shifting appearances I expect one or more people are not who they seem to be… besides evil Kaia who is wayward sisters’ problem.
    Misha is so deft at changing his voice and mannerisms when he has played alt Car characters.
    He seemed off. Oily goo Cas? Maybe… Maybe also explains why Lucifer got stronger.

      1. I was just watching Into the Mystic, in which Luci!Cas is in the LoL looking for ‘lore’ and Dean walks in and tells ‘Cas’ about his ‘connection’ with Amara and ‘Cas’ put his arm on Dean’s shoulder and I tried to remember if Castiel ever touched Dean on his own, or if it was always Dean initiating hugs and shoulder bumps and stuff.

        Do you remember? I can’t. Well when Dean is injured Cas walks up and touches his forehead to heal him. That is the only time I can think of Castiel touching Dean.

        1. Castiel touches Dean pretty frequently. In fact, one of the first times is when he takes Dean back to the past in “In the Beginning.”

  5. Remember when in the Beautiful Room how Dean almost broke his hand when he hit Castiel? Or when anger got the best of him Dean punched the Cupid? Is there any reason why Dean or Sam…can do so now without the same outcome?

    1. Only time I ever remember Dean punching Cas and not feeling the pain is when he was MoC!Dean in The Prisoner.

      When have Sam and/or Dean actually punched Castiel in the last two seasons?

    2. Can you explain what you ate thinking.
      Dean’s knee hurt. Dean is stronger than Dam but not angel strong. Dean hasn’t said yes yet.
      My guess is it will be revealed in one of those awful flashbacks they singer and Dabb love.
      Dean will show up with a repaired lance and claim he fixed it and it is good for stabbing at least but then he will do something… wow… and before we can enjoy the moment they will do one of those horrible flashbacks and show us Dean praying or something
      Od being gaslight or however Michael does it without Zachariah and saying yes…
      Anyhow, whatever Rowrna’s blue eyes mean, the fact that she is alive and helpful and can open the fighting cage means our Michael can easily be on the board.
      And if he is really crazy Jensen can have fun.

      1. Dean had super-strength with the MoC. It appears that he lost at least some of that strength when he lost the MoC, but he never went back to ordinary human strength. Even right before he got the MoC, he killed three demons in front of Cain, which ought to be beyond multiple humans, let alone one.

        We have also seen him fight angels and he still seems pretty capable of holding his own with them.

        1. Yes… but that is Dean 13 years in not Deab!Michael. He is not here yet.
          It also is why of the plotting in patience was so bad. Dean simply wouldn’t have died or been completely overpowered.

          1. I didn’t say that Dean was Dean!Michael. I was just pointing out that while Sam’s experiences (including, at one point, being Sam!Lucifer) had been making Sam more human over the years in terms of physicality, Dean’s experience arc has been the opposite. And even in the beginning, Dean was always a better fighter than Sam.

          2. Preaching to the choir about that.
            I will never let the Phoenix ash go…
            And Carver defined Dean as being the supernatural brother starting in seadon 8 premiere continuing through the season 11 finale.

        2. He does pretty well with angels befote the MoC but seems to rely on sigils when he loses ground even post Purgatory. Post Purgatory shows him holding his own with demons. Even his hearing improved.
          Post MoC he can hold own with angels too which is why the Patiemce episode and any other time Dean is surprisingly incapacitated is strange. It is not as if he is prone to evil monologuing.
          He is not showing archangel strength yet.

          1. I don’t think he’s ever shown archangel strength, even when he had the MoC.

            Either Dean’s hearing has improved to bat signal levels or his “Spidey sense for evil” (as early show scripts put it) has jacked way up. Then again, he didn’t sense Asmodeus, though that may just have been for Plot Stupid reasons.

  6. Paula, I can’t reply at your comment so I am putting it on the bottom of the thread:

    I think as part of her contract Spelling could’ve ordered her to do the scenes, telling her he would tie her up in court ‘4evah’ if she did not.

    She ‘is’ a good actress. I think she would’ve rocked saving her sisters and dying. Good death scenes could be written. THEN they could’ve shown her funeral. She would not have to be there. For some reason I remember the sisters as actually Catholic and Catholics have closed casket in the church. We don’t have to see a wake.

    Doherty created dissension on 90210 and got written off. BUT she did her scenes credibly. It just frosted me that there was no death scene. BUT Spelling knew what she was like when he hired her as ‘first’ (I think) lead in Charmed. I just think she deserved a send-off. Now the show went on for a long time after she died so I was a lonely outpost of disapproval. I get that. But unless you have some info SHE absolutely refused to fulfill her contract and Spelling for some reason did not sue her I think it was his decision.

    And the ambiance of the show for me was that the three actresses did not have the ‘charism’ of sisisterliness.

    ANOTHER reason to admire Jensen for making it his business to ‘buddy up’ with Jared (at least I heard it was HIS idea after all the crap-ola happened on Dark Angel; I can’t look at Jessica Alba or Michael Weatherly the same way) and ‘create’ a family dynamic on screen.

  7. I love The Magicians. I also appreciate that it is a Sera Gamble show, conceived by her. I mean the characters follow the books, some of the same plotlines, but THIS is her baby.

    I remember I watched Revolution to see how Kripke would lay out another ‘universe.’ I did not like Charlie from the beginning. I was pissed they killed the dad in the first 15min. I LIKED the brother. I was ticked when after spending the whole season trying to rescue him THEY KILLED HIM. I thought the Uncle was interesting; Mom drove me to distraction (she was ‘such’ a tough broad and daddy had been too weak to kill — but NOT TOO WEAK to raise his kids and build a life — it just pissed me off). The storylines just got more convoluted and confusing. I ‘tried’ to watch the show. I did. I wanted to see the lightning strike again. But no.

    Now we have Timeless, which managed to get a short renewal after a cancellation. I like the computer nerd, I don’t hate the historian, the Army guy is a disaster of angst. I like the woman boss who fear(s or ed) losing her family. I find the premise intriguing. BUT it just doesn’t gell. I watch it for the history aspects (I loved the Bass Reeves episode — you have discussed your pleasure with “Western” history and your knowledge. Bass Reeves ‘was’ the ‘real’ thing imo. A real hero. Part of the reason I hate Woodrow Wilson now is HE HAD ALL NEGROES working for the federal government and Reeves lost his job!) and am amazed that ‘anybody’ could be so knowledgeable about so many time eras. I am from Chicago I liked the HH Holmes episode! A ‘lot’ a real lot. I especially wanted to see how Kripke handled ‘that’ episode as opposed to the No Exit episode. Same topic matter basically.

    But I don’t think HE has done anything as good as Supernatural in concept but I think SHE is doing a great job with The Magicians. REALLY good dialog and characterizations.

    I just wanted to discuss how sometimes when you deal with a showrunner in depth (like I chew and digest and suck out the marrow of every SPN episode) I feel I know his work enough to ‘look’ for certain things…but in Kripke’s case I can’t find any thread to pick out. The 3 shows aren’t similar at all and the ‘thought’ put into the last 2 just lacks from the thought he put into SPN. Of course, it ‘was’ his first baby so he had it in mind for years and got thru lots of stuff. But I am impressed by how much of things ‘working’ is actually Kismet and it’s two actors who just jelled as The Brothers Winchester.

    1. Kripke’s original concept was essentialky the Night Stalker in everything but name. I believe the studio made him change it, possibly because of the contemporaneous Night Stalker reboot.
      His originasl concept was not a pair of brothers fighting evil.
      The difference was Kim Manners and a few really good writers.

      1. And Jensen… who built Dean into an icon from tthd ground up and who has charisma in spades and chemistry with every other actor he is paired with.

  8. Watching Don’t Call Me Shurley on TNT. I think that is the finest SPN episode just because we ‘finally’ get God’s take on the matter and I ‘got’ it. And I have to say, Dean saying ‘DO something, YOU DICK’ was the only time God was moved to DO something because somebody asked for/prayed to him to DO something. Only time.

    1. Nope. Chuck let Dean alter the Apocalypse story. We may not have seen Dean call God out but God let Dean dictate how the Apocalypse played out
      Dean is the most powerful being in the Supernatural verse because he is the only one Chuck lets make the final call.

      1. I agree, like getting them out of the chapel and onto the airplane in Lucifer Rising/Sympathy for the Devil. But Dean asked for help when Sam had his ‘blood’ relapse in My Bloody Valentine and got nada. Now maybe God ‘did’ help but he did not know. Maybe Sam’s issue ended the next morning, just not THEN, you know?

        I also just figured out why no SPN next week: the Olympics. DUH. No Project Runway or Daily Show either. I wish SPN was repeating Tombstone, that’s the one that ‘our’ CW channel was out for a day and a half and I watched at the library, but I want the whole season so I can watch and see how things develop. They are repeating Breakdown which is cool but I have that dvr’d and saved and watched it four times already.

  9. Watching Don’t Call Me Shurley and All In The Family and my husband said, really WELL-WRITTEN episodes and then Lucifer!Castiel shows up and starts with the suckage. The NEXT episode tomorrow starts with the ‘family therapy’ scenes and GOLLY the suckage is big on that one. I do NOT understand why Chuck will NOT end Lucifer OR at least give Sam and Dean a weapon to kill him if they need to.

    All this crap-ola about ‘recaging’ him drives me NUTS.

  10. I forgot to ask, Paula: what do you think of Amanda Tapping’s direction of the episode?

    I should look her up to see what else she has directed.

    First off, the girls were so BAD I don’t know if it was the writing or their acting ability but they were just irritating.

  11. Well that surprised me!

    And again I think Singer gives the Duo a series of directives, things they have to put in in furtherance of the rest of the season plot and SO MUCH plot is stuffed into the episode it is just a rush from plot point to plot point. We had three major storylines and alluded to the fourth. (Won’t give any spoilers I hope)

    I don’t know if Buck-Lemming were ever good writers. And I blame Singer for that. They have 85 plot points to incorporate and they do obviously but LAWD A-MIGHTY this episode was one stuffed sausage of a viewing.

  12. Hmmm. The end took an unexpected turn. Not sure how they are explaining that bit of lol.
    I figured Daneel was playing an angel. That was very Ruby/Sam 2.0.
    Still think we will get Dean!Michael.
    They are still trolling Apocalypse 1.0 with plotlines and characters.

    1. Unexpected turn? How so? Do you mean the stuff with the “prisoner”?

      A weapon that only an archangel can wield to kill another archangel? Hmm. That sounds familiar. Just hope Singer and Dabb don’t try to do a horribly botched retread of the MoC with someone else besides Dean.

      1. Yes. I wasn’t sure you had watched it so I spoke in code. And why was his mouth stitched shut.
        Is he AU Gabriel. Oh wait… Gabriel faked his death and sat put the world ending last year.
        As if plotlines weren’t crowded enough
        I do enjoy Letch even if he is as slimy as they come.

          1. Thank you for letting us know. You take care.

            TNT just began the first season again so I am reading your in depth recap/reviews for Season 1.

            Such insight. I am enjoying the book.

      2. Don’t they have their own blades. If angel blades can be wielded by everyone and their mama… why the difference…
        Singer and Dabb really suck at this.

  13. Assuming it is AU Gabriel because he has been brutally tortured.
    Not sure how Asmodeus acqyiredhim and his blade or why reviews Letch as a peer.

  14. Paula, have you got the flu? (Little kids ‘galore’ that I know have been in ER/Urgent Care this week and it’s only Tuesday. ) I was sick and am STILL coughing.

      1. They did the same thing this season and she had to fight again for equal pay.
        Duchovny is really phoning it in. She is awesome and she is in high demand.
        They actually did an episode focused on Skinner.
        The opener was rough but the rest of the episodes have been solid. A great mix of humor, horror and sci fi tinged with apropos talk of government conspiracy. Nothing as great as last season’s Mulder and Skully meet the Were Monster, LMAO still… but very solid… and one episode came pretty close to matching it.

  15. Boy, I had a post here and it was getting long and then it just disappeared. Ticked me off.

    I believe you, CC, but I can NOT believe that the show was underpaying the CO-LEAD. I thought she was just ‘changing emphasis’ or something because at the time she announced she was not re-upping for X-FILES she also announced she was leaving AMERICAN GODS. To underpay her is show-runner malpractice.

    I want to say that this type of BTS stuff surprises me usually (like co-leads who HATE each other). I am watching Star Gate: Atlantis now (I ‘love’ a good ‘hard science’ scifi show). The first season had a character named Ford; I liked Ford. Second season he was written out and word was he was ‘difficult.’ So I went to and checked his work history. The guy works A LOT and has been on multiple multi-year series. So, if he was difficult, he either straightened out fast or he was ‘not’ difficult. The lead on the show, Joe Flannigan, was a good actor imo and I liked his part too. BUT after Atlantis ended he has not gotten much work. Not at all compared to Francks. So I am now believing that the two simply did not get along, but that Francks is not a troublemaker. had run various articles on people in tv who are getting outed for harassment allegations. Chicago PD had Sophia Bush as an actress on the show; she quit after 2-3 years. NOW it turns out Jason Beghe is under investigation for ‘bad behavior’ on the set of that show. (She was getting some sympathy tweets when HIS story came out.)

    I don’t expect everybody to act wonderfully all the time but CRIMINEE not to pay Gillian Anderson what she is worth to the show? That is stupid idiotic ‘malpractice’ and somebody deserves to be fired (but since the guy who runs the show ‘really’ runs the show nothing like that will happen).

    1. She got equal pay for both seasons of the reboot but she had to fight for it both times. I believe the fact they tried to underpay her again was the proverbial straw.
      It is a pity because she is amazing and the season is actually good thus far save the premiere.
      She left American God’s reputedly because she was there because of Fuller and Fuller left. They worked together on Hannibal.

  16. Oh, I got a comment from ‘way back in the ’90s, CC: I had read that Duchovny (?) and Anderson hated each other back then, but it was related that they had had a short relationship back in the early days of the first season (off on location All The Time) but discovered they did not much like each other and it never got better. Is that too ‘inside baseball’ for you?

    Again, this just makes me appreciate Jensen Ackles ‘more’ for making it his business to forge a relationship with Jared Padalecki. The show would not have lasted the second season.

    I just decided I liked the first and second seasons’ plotting. Looking For Dad (I accepted John’s reasons for staying away from his sons) and What’s Wrong With Sam–Demon Blood Kids were really good ideas. Heck, Dean’s Deal in season 3 was also stellar. Kripke had some good ideas.

    1. Might have been Manners
      Kripke initially planned to copy the Night Stalker.
      No brother. No family mythology.
      That was the pitch.

    2. Jensen Ackles stole Dark Angel from the leads. I loved the seadon that featured him. Before it was just something to watch.
      Alba was engaged to Alba at the time… I can see Weatherly being really jealous, especially since he was a decade or so older.

  17. After researching tonight’s episode I changed my mind about Rowena becoming a vessel. Perusing SupernaturalWiki for the transcript and I came across the fact that the eyes were supposed to be purple like the eyes of a natural witch.
    From Supernatural.Wiki. various and sundry villains. Trivia.
    “After breaking the binding spell on herself that was limiting her powers, Rowena’s eyes glow purple. This had previously also been seen with Tasha Banes and her son Max. Many fans reported that Rowena’s eye’s appeared blue on their broadcast of the episode. Head of Supernatural VFX Mark Meloche confirm that the effect had been created to be purple.”

  18. After researching tonight’s episode I changed my mind about Rowena becoming a vessel.  Perusing SupernaturalWiki for the transcript and I came across the fact that  the eyes were supposed to be purple like the eyes of a natural witch.
    From Supernatural.Wiki. various and sundry villains. Trivia.
    “After breaking the binding spell on herself that was limiting her powers, Rowena’s eyes glow purple. This had previously also been seen with Tasha Banes and her son Max. Many fans reported that Rowena’s eye’s appeared blue on their broadcast of the episode. Head of Supernatural VFX Mark Meloche confirm that the effect had been created to be purple.”

    So I guess her natural powers had been blocked and she used her magical essence and a spell to unblock it and now she can do magic without bothering with words.  The spoiler references Tasha and Max who both could do silent magic as I recall, possibly making their will or desire an actuality without a spell. I think her fear of Lucifer is valid and true.  Not sure how magic can trump Lucifer unless she plans to use it to release either Michael or call an elemental, new territory, or steal power bigly.  After all her wee cobbled together coven did have a small affect on Amara. Should be interesting. I love Rowena and hope she resurrects Fergus.

  19. I like your ideas: I don’t want anybody but Dean as a vessel for Michael. I want Dean!Michael to beat AU!Michael’s patootie to chopped liver (or something).

    I say bring back Max Barnes as a love interest for Jack. Hey, it could happen! Max is HOT! Move Max and Twig!Tasha to the Bunker. Nobody has to tell her she’s dead. What was amazing about the Twig!persons was that they were really themselves but under Twig!Witch’s control. If Max just let’s Tasha BE Tasha, that would be fine by me, I like her as well. Bring back the Banes Twins.

    1. I had the feeling Tasha knew she was dead. I thought that the reason she allowed Max to take his sister’s car keys was that she knew that he was in the greater danger and wanted him out of there.

      Max is pretty easily corruptible. Giving him control over his mother and his sister would be pretty scary. Besides, I still say those were their ghosts, or at least a portion of them. After all, a part of the body (the heart) was retained. And enslaving a ghost, which is already prone to insanity, surely won’t end well.

    2. Max as a love interest for Jack? The Nephilim? Who we have no idea what if any his sexual preference is going to be? I’m confused?

      1. I would be creeped out by Jack having *any* love interest, since he’s, at best, only a few months old.

        I have very mixed feelings about Max at this point. I really hated that they introduced his sexual preference at the same time they fridged his two female relatives to motivate him to become Teh Most Powerful Natural Witch Evah (except that I suspect that’s more likely to be Rowena), on top of the entire family being PoCs. The whole situation ended up a tad nauseating with all the Unfortunate Implications zinging around like stray bullets, taking down guest characters left and right.

        I’d like to believe that Alicia (Tasha was actually their mother) could continue on in some mostly human fashion as a stick person, but the subtext heavily implied otherwise, and that she is now a monster with a ticking clock. Then again, look at how the potential threat of Ghost!Kevin fizzled right out in a literal deus ex machina.

        I’m also really not thrilled by how they just handwaved Donatello’s lacking a soul. I know there’s other stuff going on with that, but jeez, Dean, at least give Amara a call. She might answer you.

        1. After the fiasco that was the gift of his mom back in the flesh I’m thinking Dean might be a little gunshy when it comes to Amaras helpfulness. 🙂

          1. Sure, but even so, it’s an obvious solution. She’s the one with Donatello’s soul. The only way to get it back is to ask nicely and the only person she’s likely to listen to is Dean.

            Also, despite all the pain, I don’t think Dean actually regrets getting Mary back. Losing the fantasy, sure, but not having his real mother back in the flesh (neither, at this point, does Sam, since he’s desperate to rescue her now). And it does show that Amara is capable of human-like compassion and empathy, at least where it comes to Dean.

          2. Mary was not a fiasco in my book. It was the one thing Dean wanted. I think they handled their relationship really well. And I believe she is the one person whose loss can edge Dean over a line that Sasm’s could not.

            To me it was a huge deal that Dean forced Kaia to do what he wanted at gunpoint. An even bigger deal that he showed no guilt over her death. And seriously Dean us just going to tear open that rift, especially after Billie’s monologue. Ye gods… in season 6 Dean never opened the cage even though he could and he knew Sam was suffering.
            Yeah they have totally switched their grand mytharc roles. How dark do they take him .

          3. Agree with Snow. All adults need to lose the childish fantasy of our parents. And we do see those warts sooner or later. I loved my daddy to bits and emulated him as a child. Now I have all of his bad habits. Thanks daddy! When was a baby until i was a teen he was the most important person and my only role model.

        2. The easy peasy soulless Donatello stuff … he’s pretending to be Mr. Rodgers. Hell no. He is way more likely to break bad than Jack and warrants a 24/7 baby.sitter. And what now being soulless is equated with binge eating

          Twig sister is not a workable situation. She is like a tape loop on autopilot except when he controls her. And he just made himself a demon deal for more power essentially. He too will break bad, something that Dean was well aware of. But the actor is drop dead gorgeous… and could act.

          Do kids these days feel compelled to tell strangers that they are gay. I could see if coming out if he hitted on someone at the party or at least flirted like crazy. But it felt really rushed and weird at a funeral to announce it unless he was Asa’s lover too. Even on Queer as folk the characters didn’t go around telling the random straight characters their sexual status. I don’t feel compelled to announce I am straight whenever I was out with my good lesbian friend and her posse of fellow girl lovers. It is as if Dabb wanted us to know that the show does not have a problem with homosexuality.

          I was meh on the sister but I really liked the mom.

        1. Lol. Cas has to be there… because of his interest in Jack.
          I could see POOG being pissed that Cas woke up and coming to Earth to confront Jack about it. But wouldn’t be have killed Jack straight away and gone to sleep or at least stripped him of that particular power. POOG’s main interest is sleeping. Why would he be hanging around.
          I think POOG altered Cas before he got rid of him. I also think Jack altered him too. Poor Cas.
          Misha is doing a great job of portraying new tics.

          POOG was oh so very weird

  20. Paula, I am watching Sin City, and I remember your old website where your review/recap was posted; you posited that the priest and Casey were medieval Italian lovers mentioned in Dante.

    Now I looked up the story (nice brother woos beautiful heiress and she agrees to marry but turns out she got married to UGLY EVIL brother; the nice brother and beautiful heiress fall in love and UGLY EVIL brother finds them together and kills them both. Because they were committing mortal sin (adultery) at the time of death they went straight to hell (as per Dante) which I disagree with…she was TRICKED into marriage.) and I am curious. Where did you find the info that the show was using their backstory?

    1. Not sure the show ever came out and said it, but they’ve pillaged Dante a lot and that story is very prominent in Inferno. It’s a rather obvious follow-up to the Sins, who were also a Renaissance period story.

      1. Inferno is a great read and pretty apropos now.
        The seven deadly sins were wasted.
        Bocaccio also does a lot with various pairings in the Decameron.

  21. Apparently Donatello does translate a spell because the Holy Man Spoiler talks about ingredients.
    It is a spell clearly.  All of the spells from tablets have required components.

    If archangel grace is needed that could be a scenario in which Dean  makes a deal with Michael.  Something along the lines of you give me grace and I am yours.

  22. No Rest for the Wicked is on and I think the little girl who played Lillith was just the BEST. She actually portrayed malevolence. Now she has deep red hair and she works a LOT. I am really impressed with her acting in this episode and Yellow Fever.

    You know, the girl who played Missy Bender in The Benders came back as Emma in The Slice Girls. Of course Missy had her hair in her face so we never really ‘saw’ her face; I thought as Emma she grew up to being very pretty and looked a bit like Dean.

  23. F#@!
    I missed the first 2/3 of the episode. I forgot again…. This is what I got from the last third.
    Mary is Mary and alt Bobby loves her.
    Alt angels are the worst. Alt Zachariah is dead.
    Michael needs Mary for some reason. My guess as an under cover vessel or to breed his Dean with a resurrected John.
    Alt angels are stupid.
    Jack has a mission and is no longer just a plot device.
    Finally repercussions for being soulless for Donatello. Gripe: Both Dean and Sam know full well being soulless is a serious condition that results in nothing good. It was a major plot point in season’s 6 and 11.
    Dean is not willing to commit human sacrifice to get what he wants. The new and improved Sam is on the same page
    Sam is a basket case of sad feels. I think he is headed for a bad fate… like death maybe or quitting hunting and checking out.
    Cas is perfectly willing to commit human sacrifice to get what he wants. The soldier comment was chilling. Per this , his malicious face when he verbally tortured Lucifer and the weird facial expressions I have a theory. The primordial oily Goo god isn’t riding shot-gun. Instead he tweaked Cas before he sent him to Earth. Things coukd get dark and scary as far as Far goes. The other thing I noticed is that Car followed Dean’s admonition to not kill Dante but he made him brain dead on purpose. Cas is rnow a rogue element on TFW.

    Dean is going to say yes to Michael in a quid pro quo deal so They can get the ingredients to save Mary.
    Yes Cas may know about Gabriel because Asmodeus likes to grandstand with employees.
    Yes Letch’s love of Mary may lead him to leak this Intel to the Winchester’ s.
    Both of these latter scenarios requires stealing the grace. A Dean-Michael quid pro quo agreement will involve grace freely given in exchange for release from the cage and a permanent vessel. Dean would totally do this to save Mary.

    Tell me what I missed in the first two thirds. Important bullet facts only.

    1. Or at some point they will find out about Gabriel and get the angelic grace from him.

      Did you notice how each time Jack voluntarily uses his powers he seems to have a harder time bringing himself back from it. Perhaps this is Jacks unintended consequence. Even tho he’s tapping into his abilities for the right or selfless reasons – the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Poor Jack – I see his future as voluntarily casting himself into the Empty or purposefully staying in the alternate universe. Boo. I really like his character and love the way Alex is playing him.

      1. AndI don’t suppose they would be able to use part of Jacks grace since he’s part Archangel. I guess he wouldn’t have grace tho.

        1. I initially thought Lucifer woyuld take Jack’s grace f or a power up but Lucifer is going to love his sweet boy not use him.

      2. Yes Gabriel is a possibility too as I mentioned above however that requires them to take it from an archangel. I suppose Luci coukd help with that depending on how fast he powers up. And if he is AU Gabriel then perhaps Michael already took his grace . These things often play put with plan A not working so Dean runs off to do plan B.
        And come on… the ckose-up on Dean’s face. He immediately went there in his head.

        Yes Jack using powers make Jack uber Jack and uber Jack is hanging out longer. And When Jack used them for Asmodeus, which was a really long push, he seemed to get off on it and sported a crazy evil psycho dude face. He could break psycho or schizo. I am just happy that the character has f orms a plan for himself even if it is what Dean and Sam would do. Oh….

        Donatello playing at being good by pretending He is Mr. Rogers did not go well.
        Jack playing at being good by pretending to between and Sam……
        I do think that he has the potential to take out AU Michael abd maybe that will turn him. I also think besides being a wakking door opener he will figure into Kucifer’s redemptiom. Sorry evavie! They deliberately wrote and filmed those Anael scenes as erotic to highlight how close to humanity Lucifer is when his grace runs low. Bad angels that brush against humanity for too long get redemption acs… see Metatron. That guy ordered kevin’s death, corruoted Gadreel to f@#! With Dean and killed Dean every so slowly with extrene glee. He got redeemed.

        I confess I feel a frisson of excitement. I have been impressed sincec 12:1 with how well they handled the hints, references and mirroring as they slow crawled to the Apocalypse. So much so that I believe they are working from a detailed outline left by Carver. And I love how they wrote Mary and Mary and Dean. But everything else has pretty much sucked. Now suddenly they have written a couple of decent episodes. … Thanatology was solid except for POOG. And what i saw of last night’s eoisode really rocked. I mean I was totally there when usually these days I am stifling a yawn.

        Could our little show get good again. Well yes until Asmodeus struts back in. They are definitely setting up the board for an Apocalypse. I do not see AU Michael getting over here unless he is in Mary and she coaxed him to open a rift. And thst won’t stop things playing out here.

        Major things signifying the Apocalypse… killing Gog/Magog. An uber powerful half human/angel child (mirror to Jessie canonically an Apocalyptic figure). Lucifer in heaven and Michael in the cage (reverse mirror). Gabriel…. as soon as he met Dean and Sam he started focusing on them because of their Apocalyptic roles. They have reversed the brothers ‘ roles from rhe first Apocalypse although I would not rule out Sam!Lucifer yet because Luci needs to heal and per Gadreel wearing Sam would improve this, and the Rowena car conversation set Sam up to say yes. There are means to open the cage and another character besides Dean has a good reason to do so. Dean is primed to do a reckless self-sacrificing to save Mary, he is probably jonesing for the opportunity and now someone just told him how he can.
        There is more,I am sure but my head hurts from migraine. I really need to start writing this stuff down in one place and not scattered commentary.
        Lol. KFC. FCK. Pretty clever.

      3. Yes. And he looked pretty evil when he was releasing the shadeen.
        They have mirrored Donatello, I think of what Mr. Rogers would do and Jack, I think of what Sam and Dean would do….
        I think basing your actions on what a role model would do is a losing proposition. It worried me when Jack said it.
        And Donatello went evil when he used his powers so I expect Jack to as well because again mirroring and we saw that Jack was negatively affected when he opened a doorway to help level shadeen.
        It may be he defeats AU Michael and goes bad. Right before they open the rift. He and Mary come back only for Jack to break bad. This puts Cas against the Winchesters and Lucifer against the Winchesters. Sam will want to take Jack’s grace.
        Dean should be Dean!Michael…
        It will be a Mexican stand-off worthy of Tarentino.
        Too many damn balls in the air.

      4. Sam’s initial plan was to remove the grace to neuter Jack. I have to earn the actor is doing a fantastic job. At first I was freaked because he was so much like Cas. But it totally makes sense and the actor is doing a great Cas impression all the while giving him nuances info individuality.
        I will be sad to see him go.
        The guy was a walking door opener. Now he has goals. I don’t see how it can end well. All honorary Winchesters die horribly.

    2. Dean and Sam were fine with human slaughter to get what they want when it was the only way (Gog and Magog) but not when there are options.

      This is dark and yet Cas is darker all of a sudden. This is the character who called Sam to make sure Sam wanted to go ahead with removing the Mark since it required human sacrifice, and was very disturbed rhat they went there. That Cas was squicked about human sacrifice. Now Cas is all Honey Badger. He don’t care.

      Cas is rogue and psycho nuts about saving Jack…. and Mary. Why has Cas been visibly different and why is he so nuts about saving Jack … and Mary. Did Fetus Jack program a protect me prime directive accidentally. Is the Primordial Black Goo God wearing Cas for the sole purpose of finding Jack to kill him for waking Cas up. I mean there is something there. Cas has a perverse, subversive quality now and I seem to recall POGG (Primordial Oily Goo God) rooting around inside cas for answers …

      Sam is a basket case. Something very bad for Sam comes this way.

      Dean has realized that he can sacrifice himself to save Mary by making a deal with Michael. This is the default Dean response to a family member in trouble and/or severe despondent depression; ie. Demon deal in season 2 , dying to deal with Death on Sam’s behalf in seadon 6 and killing himself to talk to reaper
      about Sam in Red Meat; and MoC arc including asking Death to kill him and tasjing on the MoC. Hell he rushed to kill himself in Advanced Thanatology.

      They now have nephilim swords because God and Magog were nephilim per being giants and not being killed in the flood ( I missed this part of the episode and may be wrong however my understanding is Dean needed to use their sword to kill them. Nephilim killed by nephilim killing blades…
      So Jack can be killed. 🙁

      Jack now has a character arc that is not supersedesd by his role as walking plot device. Killing Michael and creating a utopia over there are great goals.

      We are getting Dean!Michael. The close-up on Dean’s serious yet thoughtful face, Dean’s history of making sacrifices to save family, his manic need to save Mary… all suggest that he will make a quid pro quo deal with Michael.

      We are so getting an Apocalypse over here. The killing of Gog/Magog is considered a precursor to the Apocalypse in some biblical texts. Lucifer being in heaven is significant, a reverse mirroring for the previous Apocalypse. Previously Michael was in heaven. And in another reverse mirroring Michael is in the cage. Plus they hace been referencing Apocalypse 1.0 for two seasons. Finally I am not the only one thatthinks this had a possibility. Still the only one that thinks it IS happening. And ROWENA IS ALIVE TO OPEN THE CAGE so very conveniently and hates Lucifer yada yada yada. Michael trump’s Lucifer. This is canon and biblical lore.

      Unfortunately TFW is falling apart at the seams and Crowley was oh so instrumental. Where for art thou Crowley? Rowena better resurrect Crowley off screen. Or maybe she already set that up…

      I have to say I find it to be very suspicious that Letch not only resurrected using Rowena’s magic but was also looking for Rowena. My gut says that Letch is Crowley undercover. There have been a passel (sp?) of episodes containing hidden identities via masks, and shifting into other’s apoearances, and of course demons and angels can hide their identity to humans by shifting meatsuits and certain powerful beings can hide their identities to angels and deities (Gabriel and Asmodeus).

      Who is to say Crowley is not hiding in plain sight. Why else have Letch being so amenable and wanting to work wirh the boys. And boy is Letch way less psycho. Hmmm.

      Crowley knows more than the average demon because he values knowledge and is trained in magic. And Crowley is scary smart, known for figuring out contractual loopholes and has repeatedly demonstrated a knack for not dying when he should be dead.
      And there was Dean’s Crowley is a cockroach comment. So we may not get Mark Sheppard back but we definitely could get Crowley back, or he is already back currently as a well masked Crowley.

      Asmodeus is literally the definition of a cartoonish character and the embodiment of that villain trope who defeats himself effectively through his inability to shut-up. Yet I am not sure of his endgame and he does the unexpected which is intriguing. Why the shadeen. How did he get Gabriel. An archangel is above his paygrade.

      And WTF Gabriel. I assume that the archangel sword that Asmodeus has belonged to prisoner Gabriel. It isn’t like Lucifer’s. So unless each archangel has different blades… naw season 5 Gabriel didn’t have spiraling facets on his blades. He is not our Gabriel.
      Who sewed his mouth shut. It would take serious mojo to overpower an archangel.

      1. Maybe something bigger than Asmodeus is using him, thus allowing access to these bigger fish.

        Crowley undercover in Letch. Interesting thought. I think Dean would vomit.

        What interests me is the reference to the need for the blood of a holy man. I’m certain they will ultimately mean Dean, as he is already the Righteous man. This intrigues me because going back to my Sunday School days (and Lord knows there were a lot of those), righteousness and holiness were related but subtly different, with holiness indicating his “set apart” status in the universe even more.

        1. I think this as well about Dean being the holy man…. although he is going pretty dark. I think killing something… to harvest a spell ingredient is badv as in evil. Was Dean going up and did Sam kind of go along with it.
          He definitely is,saying yes to Michael.
          It is exactly what the Plum Sisters did you know. Murdering someone for a spell ingredient.

          We Deangirls have been spiked because our fab was the righteous man who always had the moral high ground even as a demon. That is going to. Change and it will hurt even as I think it could lead to great storytelling. I wonder if J2 needing time off have finally convinced Singer to let them be separated. Dean sure hunted on his own a lot this season perhaps subtext of Dean going off to make a,deal with Michael and,then going off with Michael for an unspecified time next season. They are sure setting us up for Dean!Michael and Dean!Michael starting the Apocalypse although since Michael is Cray Cray and Lucifer is in heaven Dean!Michael maybe the rogue element fighting Lucifer’s plans. They have so many balls in the air it is hard to see where this will land.
          If Micharl is like AU Michael then Dean!Michael will be the big bad… And They are redeeming Lucifer somewhat. That said he is Lucifer and a petulant jerk not a hero… And I suspect any redemption will be tied towards his burgeoning “humanity ” and feelings for his son.
          And Michael is crazy so he way not even care about world domination at this point.
          So who knows.
          Maybe Dean!Michael will save our world from AU Michael. It makes sense to have two flawed brotherly pairings work together and certainly the Plum Sisters and Gog-Magog worked together not against each other which hints at brotherly cooperation.
          And fans do not want to see the brothers kill each other even as they wanted Dean Michael.
          I don’t want the brothers to fight either because I suspect that option has Dean being the baddie and,Sam!Lucifer “good”. I would rather rhat they fight together against AU Michael, mend fences and have Lucifer leave Sam to die.
          I totally expect Dean to have offered permanent residence for Michael in exchange for grace… which will be a while new can of worms.
          Too many balls in the air. I cannot get my head around it all.

        2. Crowley deserves better.
          It is just that Letch’s repeated overtures to pair up remind me of Crowley’s desire to be one of t he guys. And Letch is different too. Not as psycho or stuck up.
          Like Cas that actor is too good to have forgotten how to play him.
          And hiding one’s identity or stealing the identity of another have been reoccurring themes.
          Also Letch’s facial expressions around Asmodeus are priceless. He thinks Asmodeus is a colossal dumbass and cannot believe how he blabs all of his cards. I get a Crowley vibe.
          And I missed the Thanksgiving episode which reintroduced Letch however I do not buy that he resurrected because he had Rowena on lockdown and she gave him her resurrection spell and he was killing witches to find Rowena for another one.

          Ferrrgus might have a reason to look for her. And I think it is more logical thast Crowley found Letch’s body and used it for a failsafe plan B. Crowley is extremely adept at magic. And I don’t think for an instant that Crowley would just sacrifice himself like that. I do believe he would set it up to look like he made that sacrifice.

          I kind of wonder if that other demon they introduced this season, Bartolomew, was Crowley-lite just to remind us of Crowley. The bone burning certainly did and then I remembered that Crowley’s bone burning was fake.

          Is Carver back incognito rewriting scripts and trying story lines together like some writing elf.

    3. Don’t you mean “FCK”. As in a certain famous restaurants ad regarding the recent shortage of their prime product? 😉

    4. Let’s see now: I will try to give you first 2/3: in the Bunker scenes TFW and Donatello. Donatello is having ‘issues’ reading the Demon Tablet. He suddenly screams Eureka! and gives TFW the ingredients. One of them is the hearts of Gog and Magog. Dean and Castiel have short convo: Dean says Castiel is ‘off’ since he got back from The Big Empty. And that he is SO grateful for Jack resurrecting Castiel. Castiel (imo) looks shifty for just a second because HE believes it was the Lord of the Big Empty who sent him back because Castiel’s being awake is bothering him (but I also think Jack woke Castiel up so even if he did not RETURN Castiel he was instrumental in the whole return). They end up in that park in Vancouver they always go to. Gog and Magog are speaking ancient Syriac or something, remarking how pretty both Dean and Castiel are. Dean is laughing again and again (while Cas is trying to make him stifle) because ‘they are wearing LOINCLOTHS’ and then the four fight and Dean kills two of them and they discover Gog and Magog are somehow made out of sand and, NO HEARTS. They believe they were sent to be killed by Gog and Magog and want to talk to Donatello about that. Now meanwhile, Sam is grabbing ingredients that Donatello said to get, and D comes behind him and hits him with a bottle. Sam is on the ground (at this point my husband said, oh goodie, Sam tied to a chair) and next we see Dean and Cas arriving and we hear Sam’s voice and ASSUME Sam is tied to a chair but NO it’s Donatello (nice fake-out) and they all try to talk to D but he is INSANE. I think D does some spellwork or something because Dean can’t breathe suddenly and THAT makes Cas go medieval on D’s ass. We also had scenes of Zach and Mike trying to ‘work’ Jack’s mind to open the rift to get the angel army thru so they can invade ‘our’ universe. But Jack keeps saying “Sam and Dean would not want that” and he figures it out. Mary and Jack bonding scenes. Mary and Jack escape Mike’s prison. Meet up with Bobby.

      You should have said where you ‘began’ to watch the show. What was going on when you remembered it was Thursday at 7pmMT (don’t know what time-zone you are in)?

      1. Jack figures out how to open the rift. Yeah I thought that he should be able to.
        My money is on Cas looking shifty because is off in some way. There are so many characters and balls it is hard to sort through the madness. My gut is that POOG monkeyed with Cas’ wiring before sending him back. Fixed him or f’d with him. I still do not get that entire bizarre interaction. Fetus Jack also moneyed with Cas’wiring. I don’t think Cas cares about Mary at this point. His focus is Jack. The end result is that Cas is perverted now and rogue. He seems sadistic to me which he never was. Yes he is badass again but he is doing horrible things on his on accord and not following orders out or loyalty or to avoid reprogramming.
        It bodes poorly for TFW.

        They are both extremely pretty. Not sure that loincloths are historically accurate but whatever.
        This sounds hysterical. Did Dean need to use their swords to kill them. I am flummoxed by the sand but as I said elsewhere the giant thing and Cas comment about it being odd that they survived the flood indicate that they are nephilim. Donatello may have been killing two birds with one stone for Asmodeus because my guess is that those are nephilim killing swords.

        Speaking of which … I sm delighted that Jack now has goals however I am equally confused about his storyline now because they introduced so many variables. He is cosmic door opener, he can release the shadden (sp) and savior of AU Apocalypse world, and the object of Cas obsession, a device through which Lucifer can experience human feelings and potentially the cause of a real redemption f or Lucifer. And now he can be killed by a nephilim sword over there or over here. It is too damn much.

        Umm. I caught the end of Mary and Bobby’s tete a tete in which Jim’s acting made it obvious that he loves her. He was besotted, seemed to want her to stay and warned her about trusting Jack because they trusted the angel and they turned on the humans.

        I had a migraine and was resting in a dark room and lost track of time.

        Helluva episode to miss. Will try to see it next week i misplaced my tablet and refuse to watch it on my phone this far…

    1. What character… Zachariah? Jack did another goid thing. Dean and he can bond over killing Zachariah.

      1. Yeah. Zachariah. He did not seem as much of a toady, more like he was scared of Michael not a ‘true believer’ at his core.

        1. Kurt Fuller was amazing in the Role. My husband who has barely seen any of the show quotes him with jazz hands…. I have four faces and one of them is a lion… It slays me. He also loves Ash using quantum physics to move around heaven and frankly I want him to pop in and tell them to forget the spell because he has figured out how to walk between worlds…lol.
          The other thing D , the husband, loves is Hollywood Babylon and how beautifully Dean assimilated into that world.
          He hates that I had a dream in which we meet the brothers at a rest stop and leave him to research with Sam while Dean and I get it on…lol

  24. The great flood sent by God was to destroy the nephilim that were the off spring of Grigori Angels and human women.  These nephilim were giants. I read about this in season 8 or 9. There is a gospel that mentions it… might be apocryphal or part of the Torah… I can’t recall.

    So if their weapons coukd kill them and they are nephilim then those weapons could actually kill Jack.  Why else make the two nephilim references.
    I mean it is pointed .

    I don’t recall anything about hearts of sand… but that serms really specific too.

    I feel like I missed a pivotal episode.

    1. More fuel for the Dean!Michael versus Lucifer Apocalypse over here…
      According to Wiki one biblical source equates the Messiah with the slaying of Gog and Magog .
      # Dean is the Messiah.
      Other sources call them apocalyptic figures and precursors to the actual Apocalypse.

      Oh if Jack’s mission is to AU-Michael I assume that Jack will kill AU Michael unless Mary is AU Michael and uses a spell to defeat him or has his version of Nephilim Gog and Magog and uses their weapons to kill Jack.

      Gog and Magog must be nephilim because biblical texts (Ezekiel maybe) describe nephilim as giants and Cash I thought that the flood killed them all is another reference because God sent the flood specifically to kill all nephilim. So in Supernatural Gog and Magog are Nephilim and their weapons might kill Jack because I understand that only their weapons coukd kill them… nephilim swords.

    2. I think it’s the Book of Enoch (Enoch was supposed raised to Heaven and became the Archangel Metatron — at least what that is what I understood).

  25. I am really liking watching Stargate Atlantis just for all the Canadian actors I recognize from Supernatural. Remember the Gas’n Sip guy who said, what am I, speaking URDU? from Born Under a Bad Sign? He was in it, playing a calm peasant type who helped the Team. The docent who helped in searching for the killer in Provenance was on. Oh this is such fun.

    Yesterday they had some ‘really’ old lady on and Pete suddenly said, she played the old lady stroke victim in Playthings. I was just about to look her up on too, and he beat me!

  26. I didn’t care for the new Zachariah. He lacked the old one’s “company man” panache.

    I wonder if they will bring back Amara to resurrect Donatello’s soul. Dean more or less predicted this, and he’s usually right. And why else would he be left on machines?

    1. I don’t think Donatello is important enough for Dean to reach out.
      He is on life support because either Asmodeus of Lucifer will seek him out.
      I have a feeling that Cas removed everything in his brain.
      Lucifer could heal him and use him tibreassembke the angel tablet I guess.

      1. If he’s still a Prophet without his soul, then it stands to reason (or as much as this gang of writers have bothered to think through) that, as with Vessels, his body doesn’t need a mind to work as a Prophet, either.

        1. Yes i agree. Kevin simply touched the keviathan tablet.
          He’s alive for some reason.
          I did like the fact he was an academic and could be fake spell ingredients easily .
          Do you think those swords can kill anything.

          1. I’m sure they’ll find something the swords can’t kill. At least it appears they remembered that angel swords can kill ordinary Nephilim.

          2. A sword forged by God is pretty big
            They should work on anyone below God level pay grade theoretically.
            Just a,couple of stray thoughts…
            We are supposed to compare TFW’s actions to the Plum Sisters. Both were using any means necessary to get a spell by any means necessary to save their mothers and the doell ingredients…

            Killing the Phoenix was a world. saving act that Dean regretted. Saving mom isn’t a world saving move and although saving Jack might be considered world saving the motivation at this time is personal benefit. So I think the situation is problematic.
            They are hinting at a rift in TFW that will only worsen … And will come to be head quickly if Dean says yes to Michael. Who will want any nephilim and Lucifer’s child in particular killed. In this light Dean having access to God forged swords is significant.

          3. I don’t think it’s surprising at all that Dean got access to a God-forged blade and practice using it. Chuck left him in charge and the new Death refused to let him die because she needed him to protect the Quantum Multiverse. So, they left him some tools. It’s not any different from, say, Perseus getting weird and powerful gifts from the gods in Clash of the Titans.

            Will Dean’s way of dealing with his task turn out to be a lot darker than Perseus’ (at least, in the film)? Sure. But that’s because Dean is a much darker kind of Hero, not because he’s some kind of parallel to the Plum Sisters.

            Either the writing is especially bad this season (Lord knows the Nep Duo haven’t improved), or we’re supposed to be suspecting at this point that Jack’s feckless slicing through barriers between worlds is not the very salvo in this Multiverse war. Alt-Michael seems to have been awfully armed-up and ready to cross the streams before Lucifer and Mary even showed up. And one has to wonder why poor, quickly-forgotten Kaia kept having dreams of the same world over and over and over again. It doesn’t seem to me as though the Multiverse elements were as blissfully unaware of each other prior to Jack’s birth as we were originally led to believe.

            So, on top of our knowing (and TFW knowing) that alt-Michael is going to come through, anyway, Saving Mom is turning out to be a world-saving move, as well.

  27. Anybody else think Castiel dispatched Donatello with ‘extreme prejudice’ because he hurt Dean?

    I read Sam and Dean question D; D does ‘something’ with his hands; Dean can’t breathe; Sam gets him out of the dungeon; Cas walks up and touches Dean; I think Dean was getting better anyway but he was ‘a-ok’ after Cas touched him; Cas got ‘a look’ and went to D and locked the door and THEN ripped the info out of D. And ‘ended’ him as a person and a prophet.

    Now I ‘get’ that since his soul was gone D’s psyche was unutterably damaged by the demon tablet. He was a rabid animal and in a way Castiel removed him physically from the scene. I don’t even know if he had a psyche…whatever it was there was no D left. IF that was the case Castiel should have killed him.

    My ‘get’ on Sam and Dean here, why they argued with Castiel about it, was that D was an ALLY and they never really turn on allies. I mean, Dean went back to save Meg in the episode in which they were all in Crowley’s Alpha Prison, right?

    1. I missed part of the episode. My gut tells me no. Something is off with Cas.

      Yeah the ally thing could be part of it. Frankly Cas’ suggestion to kill him before he hurts someone or kill him to activate a new prophet are both extremely cold blooded. The Winchesters usually don’t fly that way.

      And while they were fine killing the other brothers because they needed their hearts… I still cannot believe that even as if fits my Dean going dark to save Mary … They are not willing to kill Donatello to get the spell… Yet. If it proved to be the only way I have a feeling Dean might consider it and Sam would go along with it even if the thought searching into hysterics.
      I have come to the conclusion that Sam’s hysterics are happening because he has realized they are in a dark path and knows it is wrong. He is,falling apart as a result in an extreme case of out out Damned spotism.

      I am getting more and more worried about Apocalypse 2.0. Sam, the moral center is falling apart. The dark brother is Dean which just plain scary and Dean!Michael is even scarier. We saw how bad AU Michael was and that dude does not have his OTV.Dean!Michael is Dean + Michael in his OTV tiooed with two kinds of crazy. Cas is darker then Dean and rogue for some reason. He is not really on their team I suspect because he has different ulterior motives. And there is Crowley. Crowley was critical in season 5. I think Letch may fulfill that role even if he isn’t Crowley which is apropos because the BMOL were the demons that seduced Mary and Letch was her Ruby.

    2. I think Castiel hurt Donatello because Donatello hurt Dean. Castiel’s a soldier with very black-and-white thinking. He’s grown over the years, but under stress, he reverts to his original angelic personality. And he looked pissed.

      I don’t think, though, that he was quite correct about Donatello’s soul being irretrievable. We don’t really know how much Dean told the others about Amara’s capabilities, but I don’t think she would have offered Dean the “peace” of eating his soul if she had been lying about having all the souls she’d eaten still inside her, intact. She may be the Darkness, but she’s also more powerful than her brother, which means she can quite conceivably contain infinite multitudes, and she is not malicious. For all we know, there’s an entire Heaven-like world inside her being. Dean is aware of all of this, but I’m not sure anyone else besides him and Amara (and Chuck) is.

      I think Dean was disturbed because Donatello was human. He’s not going to feel disturbed about summoning and killing two murderous monsters like Gog and Magog for a spell, any more than he felt very much intestinal discomfort about going back in time just to kill the Phoenix. But he’s shown distress in the past about people he cares about who lost their souls. And just because he has developed a relationship with one Naphil (Jack), that doesn’t mean he feels any others aren’t monsters.

      1. Yeah… once I finally saw it I realized that Cas as mad. initially gog/Magog were presented as brothers not monsters..
        Donatello is a mirror for Jack. He has broke bad.
        Most soldiers don’t torture or harm prisoners. Cas used to keep his emotions in check except for the rsre occurrence. There is a fundamental change.

        1. Um, are we talking about the same Castiel who brought in Hell’s Apprentice Master Torturer (Dean) to torture Hell’s Master Torturer after angel torture couldn’t make him crack (mainly because his only big secret was that he wasn’t responsible for what they thought he was responsible for) in “On the Head of a Pin”? Is this not the same dude who tortured a child at the soul level in “The Third Man” to extract information and later got scolded by Dean over it? Pretty sure that’s what he was referring to when he told Donatello he’d promised not to extract information like that.

          Castiel’s never had any problems with torturing if he’s doing it. If Dean (or Sam)’s doing it, that’s a different story.

          1. Well angels were dying damn it. And thst literally was wartime.
            I think Cas is teetering on an age .

          2. Castiel has never had a problem with torture, just with the effects it might have on Dean. And that concern is relatively recent.

  28. So everyone hates Mary which I do not get.
    I try to play devil’s advocate to understand characters beyond the brothers and I think it is normal for then to interact with other characters or have friends. And Mary had a right to have a life or chose to do something besides care for her adult son’s

    I am very Dean positive and recognize that he is a flawed buman being that can make mistakes.  He usually tears himself up with guilt too so he has the penance thing down.  I think he is getting darker by the minute and will say yes to Michael.

    I think the brother’s roles have reversed this Apocalypse so Sam will have the more sympathetic role this time around as indicated by his being in caretaker mode formally Dean’s gig. He also may be assuming the moral high ground . He is,the only character freaking out about what they care doing.

    I love Benny and Crowley especially his human arc and his obsession with Dean. I don’t like most of the choices they have made with Cas and I tend to cut him slack because regular angels have issues with free will.  They were not made to make  their own decisions. 

    I had issues with Sam until Carver repeated his dark arc on the small scale leading  to a fabulous redemption arc.  Sam was “shitty” to Dean, tried to apologize by doing the trials so Dean woulld not use them as a suicide run,  was angry at DEAN, said shitty things to him, did everything he could to save Dean and finally in season 11 apologized to Dean and felt actual guilt and remorse that people were dying because of the Darkness. Finally after succumbing to hubris again he puts his faith in Dean.  It was well done in my  opinion and long past due. Kripke and Gamble really messed up by not allowing Sam to feel remorse and atone for his dark arc that lead to the Apocalypse.

    Mary has gone through these steps in accelerated fashion.  She hasn’t reached the apology stage per se but she will which is why I am sure they will open  the rift which is bad and selfish and Sam knows it hence his hysteria at times. Not only has Sam shifted into Dean’s old caretaker role but he is also shifting into the moral high ground in the Winchester Apocalypse 2 0.  A lot of Dean  fans are going  to suffer.

     Dean doesn’t care at this point because his sole focus is saving Mary and he’s being set up to go dark and say yes to Michael. 

    Cas doesn’t care either which is most disturbing because Cas’ whole arc in 6 was about preventing another Apocalypse. We are supposed to be wondering what is up with him. Not saying yes to badass cas.

    I love Mary and her and  Dean’s relationship. It was handled perfectly to lead us into Dean’s impulse to sacrifice for loved ones and/or guilt ridden depression, his tragic flaw.  They have set him up to say yes to Michael which is all kinds of bad.

    Mary is 100 % Winchester. She runs from her troubles like Sam has done multiple times and Dean did in season 9.  She buries herself in hunting like Dean.  She uses a grand gesture in lieu of an apology like Sam.  She sacrifices herself to save a loved one like Dean.  And she never once berated them or said awful things in the heat of the moment the way both boys have done to each other.

    So I am flummoxed as to why she is singled out for being shitty. Imo it smacks of sexism.  I am sure that these same fans would hate for her to be in the bunker 24/7 waiting on the boys hand and foot. She is Damned either way.

    This storyline has refrained everything along the lines of a Greek tragedy.  There was a family curse on the house of Atreus that stemmed from an ancestor, Tantalus, feeding the gods human flesh… at least that is my recollection  that lead to bloodshed in subsequent generations including Agamemnon and Menelaus (sp) the brothers that declared War on Troy,  the Greek big battle immortalized by Homer as well as human sacrifice and the horrible murders and matricide of the Orestaea (sp) which Aeschylus used to illustrate the transition from the conceot of individual vendetta to achieve justice to an ordered society.

    Instead of an irredeemable act like cannibalism Mary makes a denon deal to resurrect John that sets the whoke thing off whilst under a powerful angelic love spell (no accident that We had a love spell episode this season). Yet somehow Mary is the worst person that ever was. Eyeroll.

    Kripke framed his mytharc on Judeo-christian myth.  This time, this Apocalypse through the addition of Mary the writers are going epic literally  and exploring the origin of Dean ‘s tragic flaw of sacrificing himself to save family born out of extreme guilt over not saving her.  Her loss molded Dean as much as John’s attenpts to protect Sam through exclusion  molded his hubric inclinations and need to prove himself  which lead to Apocalypse 1.0 and was beautifully illustrated in season 11 (Just My Imagination) .

  29. Oh Evavie… I f orbit to say that Duchovny is reported to be well endowed an a sec addict. Gillian was very young. I think young girls tend to fall in love quickly.
    She married a an assistant director I think but it didn’t last long. It sounded like a rebound thing. At least that is what I remember.
    Her acting was… is… stellar.. And being about as small as she is I have always admired her beauty and elegance. She was transcendant in Hannibal.
    She is more beautiful now. And yes she probably has had work done but she has the sense not to go overboard in some hopeless effort to look twenty.
    The puffy face that results from that looks awful. At 50 you cannot look 20. Wrinkles can be reduced but fat shifting and volume loss is a major part of facial aging and cannot be erased by a procedure. If you fill too much you look like a freak.

    She has allowed herself to age. She looks fabulous.

    Fyi… I know this because I read up on it and asked my derm about it out of curiosity. I have noticed that many celebrities face structure alter… chins get enormous. Cheeks get enormous. Cheeks begin right under the lash line. Lips get trouty. I thought it was implants and face lifts and people do utilize cheek and chun implants however it is mostly fillers.

    So sad.

  30. Okay I sorta watched what I missed on my phone with connection acting up bigly …
    Big cheers to Dean and Sam for stopping the Apocalypse. It makes what appears to be happening now more tragic.
    Yikes Dean has absolutely no issue about summoning what he believed to be humans to kill and cut out their hearts for a spell. Yep Dean is dark. That is very Plum Sisters of him.
    Gog and Magog were Neolithic Rosencrantz and Guldenstein types. That entire scene was a hoot. Jensen and Misha are both bringing their A gane this season.
    Also I was off on the nephilim spec… no syrorise since i had not seen it. Weird that at they were giants that survived the flood. Also weird that they were made of sand. Weirder still that their swords cut/ broke an angel blade. Thos still could be Jack killing blades by the way. .
    Dean killing both seems significant. He is stronger than Cas for one. Some lore equates their killer wirh the Messiah. Their death is considered a harbinger of the Apocalypse. It all hints at DEAN having a special role and is reminiscent of his previous titles (Michael’s sword, righteous man). So yeah. Still on the crazy Dean!Michael train.
    Weird faces aside Cas does seem in Machiavellian soldier mode. Even if POOG did not rewire him a bit it bodes poorly because militaristic angel mode leads to Apocalyptic dystopias. He definitely was pissed about Dean. So now that I have seen this I am understanding Cas’ mindset more although I will not discount POOG rewiring him a bit
    He still seems to see Jack as some messiah too per his vision courtesy of fetus jack and seems to see his resurrection as a sign that his greater purpose is serving Jack. Again militaristic angels trying to create a utopia for a leader is exactky bow one ends up with an Apocalypse.
    The weird facial expressions and mildly sadistic behavior towards Lucifer…. POOG rewired him.
    I know that they were in a church however that was a lot of blatant messiah iconography around Jack. Perhaps more than Dean was associated with in season 4. It could just mean he saves alt-world from Michael I guess. Or they are making a connection between Jack and Christ to signify Jack will die.
    The lingering shot of Michael within the opening Jack created in the metal grace suggests that Jack opens a the rift and Michael gets through.
    Bobby loves Mary. I kind of like gentleman Bobby.
    The Bobby and Mary conversation. Definitely two universes that differ because of Mary saying yes or no. I favor the quantum multiverse because Billie had a discussion with Dean on this subject which I cannot ignore. I do love the Buffy vengeance demon idea and that could work.
    There were three major things to take away from the conversation. Mary’s guilt is her driving emotion which makes sense because everything she did last season was obviously guilt driven. She is also protective of her sons and very proud of them throughout the episode.
    Bobby not only points out that the difference between their two worlds resulted from Mary’s choice he states that Dean and Sam make theur world safe. So this It’s a wonderful Apocalypse and has been written to remind them and us of the positive difference the Winchesters make. I vaguely recall fans grumbling that the brothers were no longer written as heroes and wonder if the writers misunderstood thatl this wasbfan code for ” I hate tbis storyline”, took the complaints seriously and decided to show that thebWinchesters were heroes albeit dirty ones
    The third takeaway is that Bobby is all the AU Apocalypse has. It is a hint that they need Jack so his plan to kill Michael is a good thing to do.
    Jack acts like a cult member who has drunk all of the koolaid. The shadow animals were adorable. So he was weakened in the beginning by warding. He could kill Michael….
    Donatello and Jack are mirrors. Donatello used Mr. Rogers as a morality guide… What woukd,Mr. Rogers do? He would be wearing a cardigan Donatello. It is his prime directive. Jack uses Dean and Sam… what would Dean and Sam do. Donatello went bad. From using his power… I really liked the extrapolation they made regarding the soul being a protective filter so Donatello was corrupted by the demon tablet. This suggests Jack using his power on a large scale will turn him to the dark side. They hinted at this when Jack was opening a rift to free the shadeen (sp).. Jack gaves us creepy psycho face rather than his usual bland moonie face. See what i mean about too many mytharcs.
    I think he will open the rift for Mary at about the same time TFW opens their own rift. A very Supernatural gift of the magi moment. Michael probably comes here because this writing team likes multiple mytharc something fierce. Jack dies trying to stop him or goes mad/bad crazy…. They have so many balls in rthecasir this season that I cannot tell.
    And yes the recipe to open the rift screams Dean making a deal with Michael. Which can’t be good given what we have seen about Michael. The fact that our michael is crazy is the wildcard.
    All I really know is that it is getting very interesting.

  31. Usually by this point I have a good idea about probable outcomes in big strokes without the details. I have been able to out the details together yet because they have too many players and too many storylines.  Too many notes!  At this point I want Asmodeus reenact Silence of the Lambs to get them off of the board.  I want POOG to sleep through the rest of the show.  And please keep those shadeen away.  You just know that the key to their release is on that demon tablet and Donatello read it.  Just say no Dabb!
    All I really know is that it is getting very interesting. And we are definitely getting Dean!Michael… I am sticking to that.

  32. More thinking, possibly more clarity…

    There is a lot going on . Some more tboughts in which I have tried to keep character motivations in mind. It helps me to identify the major and minor plots. This is still in progress. My head hurts so this is as far as I have gotten.

    I think the Fauxpocalyse. Might be a red hsrring of sorts to distract from the fact that they are moving everything in place for a real one with Winchesters. Asmodeus is so lame that Letch appears to be constajt my trying not to laugh and Michael is stupid.

    I confess that there are so many storylines and characters in it now that it is confusing to see the forest for the trees. Too many balls in the air.

    I do think they have set Dean up yo say yes to save Mary. The guy is ready to cut out people’s hearts for a spell… He will have no problem saying yes to michael to save mommy. They have shifted Sam into Dean’s former caretaker and the moral high ground role, however I also think there are hints for Sam saying yes too. For me his car convo with Rowena raised this possibility and given Lucifer’s current state Sam is his best bet to heal. Not only is Sam his OTP but in season 9 with Gadreel we saw that vessel strength matters in this regard.

    It is nice to see Cas with purpose however he seems to be dedicate to Jack as a warrior and militaristic angels are inherently dark characters on his show. It makes me nervous.

    They have set up at lot of conflicting possibilities for Jack and Lucifer. Jack wants to do good; ie. What would Sam and Dean do; and at the moment he identifies as human . I think using his powers changes that balance and open a up the potential for him to break bad. We saw the psych face he had when using his powers to free the shadeen. And They have mirrored Donatello and Jack. Donatello tried to do What Mr. Rogers would do and when he used his powers he was corrupted.

    So Jack could go bad. I think he will open a rift to free Mary; he opened jail up to free her which hints thematically to this. He wants to kill Michael. The framing of the last shots of Michael within Jack’s opening suggests that he lives long enough to get here. I think AU Michael is there to motivate other characters which will start a chain event. Actually this has already started. Lucifer and Cas’ actions are motivated by the upcoming War with Michael. Jack has established life goals to kill him. The Winchesters doubled down on rescue plans when they heard that AU Michael tortured her. Dean wasn’t on board with opening the rift until he heard that. So AUMichael is the great motivator. I don’t see him lasting long once these balls are in motion.

    Lucifer is inherently bad and yet he feels some fatherly inclination towards Jack and is hovering near humanity which has to intensify his fatherly love. It sure looked like he was set for redemotion… but… that image on him on the crown with his army was unsettling. And militaristic angels at war following his orders… this is another very scary scenario.

    It is also the opposite of the first Winchester Apocalypse. Now we have Lucifer in heaven planning for War and Michael in the cage. Instead of Sam releasing Lucifer unintentionally I tbink Dean will release Michael intentionally. Once our Michael is our we are set up for an Apocalypse. Michael us crazy, .Michael is not in charge of heaven however given Lucifer’s comment about the single mindedness of his brothers in any universe to achieve their objective, he will be motivated and dangerous and crazy.

    I have no idea what Asmodeus wants besides killing Lucifer and finding door opener Jack to free the shadeen. It looked like that would be a bad thing and yet another mytharc so please not this season. Despite the fact that he has Gabriel, a weird archangel blade and some handy parlour tricks he feels inconsequential to me. Doesn”t mean he won’t create distractions get someone killed or manage to use Donatello to release the shadeen using the demon tablet. I don’t think the Apocalypse is his thing. It is possible Rowena is/will work with him to kill Lucifer. Common goals and she likes to feel superior to men. There’s no doubt she is superior. I hope that he provides her with all of tthe best evening gowns.

    Gabriel tryed to educate the boys, gave critical Intel, and failed to kill Lucifer the last time around. They may reverse this to some extent or tweak it sideways. After all our Apocalypse set-up is polar opposite at this point. He is a pretty big hint that we are getting our Apocalypse. So is Dean killing Gog/Magog.

    Killing them is an Apocalyptic harbinger in biblical lore much as Sam Killing lilith as previously. Some lore equates their killer with the messiah. Some texts conflate Michael with Jesus. Wiki does not go into tremendous detail however it is more evidence that Dean will play Sam’s role in Apocalypse 2 0. 1st he kills Apocalyptic figures fulfilling a prophesy. Next I think he will open the gate to release Michael and say yes. Boom… Apocalypse

  33. So many interesting thought, Castiel’s Cat. I had to go back and refresh my memory on the Atreides, it’s been so long since I looked at any of that. I guess if you are going epic with a multiverse it makes sense to go epic with your mytharc.

    So did Mary curse her family through the demon deal? Yes and no. The angel involvement argues against it, and Mary, thus far is the only one that I know of to strike a demon deal and not go to hell. Maybe they could not hold her responsible due to their tampering. At least they are equally culpable.

    Clearly the family is cursed though. Either you curse the world to save the family, or you curse the family to save the world. Maybe all the Messiah symbolism around Jack in the alternate universe is to show that he is the one meant to save that world. Lacking the Winchesters themselves, Jack is created as an extension of them, through their influence, for the purpose of entering the other world. After all, he is a cursed child too. I don’t know. I guess I’m just rambling.

    1. Interesting about the family being cursed. I think the Winchesters are portrayed on the show as the Child in the Basement in Ursula K. Le Guin’s “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas.” Only one (Dean) seems able to find the grace to embrace this destiny and inspire others to change the world into a place where you don’t have to curse a few with destructive knowledge of the supernatural to allow billions their stupid, ignorant bliss.

          1. I loved Earthsea. It deals with morality which I lacking in a lot of fantasy. Lott is powerful myth building however the characters are not explicitly faced with the morality of their actions. Samwise is the moral center yet no one besides Frodo knows that Sam is the hero that saved everything and even though he writes about Sam’s actions so that some readers will get this, he doesn’t ever acknowledge this in words.
            Happily karma is good to Samwise. This guy was so good the ring could not corrupt him.

    2. This season is great for rambling. There is a lot going on. I am still processing my thoughts and posted some out loud musings.
      AU Michael is pretty two-dimensional but he is motivating most of the characters in some way. I do not see him as long-term.
      I think Jack has the potential to go bad by using tapping into too much power to kill Michael and/or through strong emotions,when he meets daddy. I think his life has to be getting complicated.
      By introducing Mary and focusing on her history and her relationship to Dean they are exploring the origins of all of the family angst and supernatural relationships. She is the beginning. And it is the perfect step-off to exploring Dean’s issues and his mytharc generating move of reckless self-sacrifice.

      I have been stunned all along that Dabb managed consistency with Mary’s story, Mary and Dean’s relationship and dripping hints of the coming Apocalypse. And now that it is starting to come together I remain stunned .

      I guess it does make sense if these were the top tier arcs. Everything else has kind of sucked. So now I am going to think about things prioritising Winchester Apocalypse, Dean and Mary. Michael and Lucifer the closely into the Apocalypse. Jack dies into Lucifer and TFW. Everything else is busy work.

      Because it builds on what they did for Sam under Carver I have to tbink Carver left a road map. I also have this idea of Carver sneaking in at night to add and remove yellow sticky’s and rewrite scripts.

      Kripke is on record quoting Campbell so he used a secondary source as a guidebook. Carver and Dabb seem to be better aware of source material. And later he backed into using judeo-christian myth and Good Omens as his guidebook. Season 4 was really good.

      Yeah I read this, stuff 35 years ago. Seriously though the Orestaeii (sp) is magnificent.

      1. Hey Cas. There’s only one small problem with your idea of how the story is probably going to go with Dean… it’s too interesting! It also puts a lot of the focus and importance on Dean and we all know we can’t have that. I think you are putting too much faith in Dabb pulling off the rest of the season – much less setting up Season Fourteen. I hope I’m wrong but it feels to me as if the drivers side of the Lamborghini is skirting the berm and Dabb is trying hard to wrench it back onto the road before plunging off the cliff. Unfortunately Singer, who is riding shotgun is not helping the situation as he keeps grabbing the steering wheel.

        1. I don’t know. I know I sounded like a crazy cat lady lady year and maybe a bit last week tooo…
          But everything is lining up… and I think they are shining a light on Dean’s tragic flaw as an extension of his reaction to losing Mary.
          Before Thanatology aired I described Dean’s mindset and said that this perfect storm of angst, guilt and depression would lead him to make a big reckless self sacrifice to save someone. Then the next week Dean describes his depression and angst before he makes a big reckless sacrifice to save Sam.
          Sure getting Cas back made Dean a bit happier on the surface. He is still primed. It is coming. And I think a lot of things are going to fall apart in them.
          Deasn has already realized he can get the archangel grace by himself. That is why the camera ficused on his determined face.
          Cas is going down a dark road. They might be mirroring Cas taking in the contents of the denon tablet to Cas sucking in all of the monster souls too. So… yeah dark road.
          Sam is getting hysterical.
          Things will be getting interesting.

  34. Anyhoo, my current plan is to catch up with “live” threads tonight and tomorrow, and then do this week’s on Friday. There isn’t supposed to be an episode next week, so I’m hoping to catch up with the reviews, as well.

          1. The last time they needed bio material from a holy person, they just stole the bone of some random nun. Dean-oriented twists of that variety (like the Michael Sword) are rare and almost always truncated. Sure, there’s the part where Dean took the MoC and became Amara’s world-saving BFF as a result, but there isn’t a whole lot else the writers have been willing to play out, even when it was logical.

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