Whispers, Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 07/24/17: The San Diego Comic-Con Edition

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Sci-fi Spoilerpalooza
By Heather S. Vina

San Diego Comic-Con was this weekend. As usual, there are a LOT of news and spoilers out! Too much for me to gather everything, but hopefully, I hit the highlights for the genre shows!

You can check out YouTube for different highlights from different panels, including some panels in their entirety. A good place to start for highlights is the Flick and the City channel. Spoiler TV also has a page on their website for panel links. They gradually collect them all and add them to the page as they go, so check them out as well!

Several shows had some big news this weekend: Wynonna Earp has been renewed for a third season. Iron Fist has been renewed for season two. The Originals will be ending this season.

The 100: The Comic-Con panel showed a sizzle reel for the show. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast. TV Line has up some highlights from the show’s panel.

12 Monkeys: The show released a new trailer for their fourth and final season.

American Horror Story: Ryan Murphy revealed another clue for the new season on his Instagram. The show also has a premiere date: Tuesday, September 5.

Arrow: There’s a new trailer out for season six. TV Line has up some spoilers from the panel. The show also announced that actor Michael Emerson (Person of Interest) was joining the show in a recurring, mysterious role.

Black Lightning: There’s a new trailer out for the new superhero show. The show has added actors James Remar ( Dexter) and Damon Gupton (Bates Motel) to the show as series regulars. Remar will play Peter Gambi, the oldest friend of Jefferson Pierce/Black Lightning and Gupton will play seasoned lawman Inspector Henderson.

Colony: TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

The Defenders: There’s a new trailer out for the show. Deadline has up some details from the show’s Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Dirk Gently: Syfy has up an interview with the cast on season two. There’s a sneak peek for season two on the show’s official Twitter account.

Doctor Who: The trailer is out for the Christmas special, “Twice Upon A Time.” Spoiler TV will have up the full panel of the gang at Comic-Con soon, but if you want to just see Peter’s ‘thank you’ speech, you can see it on Flicks and the City‘s YouTube channel. IMDb has up an interview with Peter on the best time to leave the show. EW has up the advice Peter gave to new Doctor Jodie Whittaker. Pearl and Michelle spoke with TV Line about their characters’ potential returns. Syfy has up a video interview with the ladies, too, as well Yahoo. EW has up the second official photo for the Christmas episode with Peter Capaldi and David Bradley. Steven Moffat spoke out against the idea of a backlash against a female Doctor.

The Exorcist: The show has added to its second season cast actress Zuleikha Robinson (Still Star-Crossed).

The Expanse: There’s a new trailer out for season three. The show has adde actress Elizabeth Mitchell (Lost) to the cast for season three.

Fear the Walking Dead: Deadline has up some highlights from the show’s Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

The Flash: There’s a new trailer out for season four. The show also announced some casting news. Actor Neil Sandilands (The 100, The Americans) has been cast as villain Clifford Devoe, AKA The Thinker. Danny Trejo (Machete, From Dusk Till Dawn) has been cast as Breacher, a feared bounty hunter from Earth-19 and the father of Gypsy. Kim Engelbrecht (Dominion, Eye in the Sky) has been cast as The Mechanic, a highly intelligent engineer who works for Devoe and is devoted to his cause. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Game of Thrones: Deadline has up some highlights from the show’s Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up some video interviews with the cast on their favorite scenes. EW has up interviews with actress Jessica Henwick and actress Nathalie Emmanuel on this weekend’s episode.

The Gifted: There’s a new trailer out for the series. TV Addict has up interviews with the cast.

Gotham: There’s a new trailer out for season four. The show has cast actress Crystal Reed (Teen Wolf) as Sofia Falcone, the daughter of Don Falcone. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Inhumans: There’s a new trailer out for the show. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Ironfist: Along with the renewal news, the show is also getting a new showrunner in Raven Metzner.

iZombie: The show has upped Robert Knepper from recurring to series regular for season four. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Legends of Tomorrow: There’s a new trailer out for season three. It was announced that actor Neal McDonough (Damien Darhk) has been promoted to series regular, while Arthur Darvill (Rip Hunter) and Wentworth Miller (Captain Cold) will be back in recurring status. TV Line has up some highlights from the panel.

Legion: EW has up the first page of the scriptfor season two’s opening episode. Deadline has up some highlights from the Comic-Con panel. Actor Saïd Taghmaoui (Wonder Woman) has been cast as Amahl Farouk AKA the Shadow King. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Lucifer: There’s a new trailer out for season three. It was announced that actor Tom Welling (Smallville) would be joining the show as a rival for Lucifer.

Midnight, Texas: Deadline has up some highlights from the show’s Comic-Con panel.

Once Upon A Time: There’s a new trailer out for season seven. Deadline has up some details on the show’s Comic-Con panel, as well as the scene that they debuted there. TV Line has up their own set of highlights. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

The Originals: At Comic-Con, the panel showed a sizzle reel for the show. The cast also spoke to TV Line about the coming season. The show has recast the character of Hope with 17-year-old actress Danielle Rose Russell (The Last Tycoon), officially making her a teenager in a 5-year jump when the show returns. You can catch a glimpse of her from a scene they released at their panel. The show is also promoting recurring actor Steven Krueger (Josh) to series regular in season five.

Outlander: There’s a new trailer out for season three. Deadline has up some highlights from the Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up some highlights, as well as a video interview with the cast.

Preacher: The show has a new trailer out for season two.

The Runaways: The first teaser has come out on the show’s official Twitter account.

Shadowhunters: TV Line has up a video interview with the cast. It was announced at the panel that actress Alisha Wainwright (Maia) has been promoted to series regular.

The Shannara Chronicles: Spoiler TV has up the first promotional art for season two.

Star Trek Discovery: There’s a new trailer out for the show. TV Line has up some spoilers and highlights from the show’s panel at Comic-Con, as well as a video interview with the cast. The official Star Trek YouTube channel has up a lot of interviews with the cast. The official site also has up some highlights from the panel, as well as photos. EW has up an interview with showrunner Aaron Harberts on the differences with the Klingons in this series compared to the others. Syfy has up some interviews on the show.

Stranger Things: There’s a new trailer out for season two. The cast spoke with TV Line about season two.

Supergirl: There’s a new trailer out for season three. TV Line has up an interview with the cast from Comic-Con. Some casting news was announced at Comic-Con. Actor Adrian Pasdar (Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D) has been cast as villain Morgan Edge, a charismatic capitalist. Carl Lumbly (Alias) has been cast as M’yrnn J’onzz, father of J’onn J’onnz. Yael Grobglas (Jane the Virgin) has been cast as Psi, a psychic villain who uses people’s own minds against them. Emma Tremblay (Elysium) has been cast as Ruby, a fan of Supergirl. Calista Flockhart is set to return in the season premiere, as well as on tap to be recurring for season three.

Teen Wolf: Deadline has up a few quotes from the show’s Comic-Con panel. TV Line has up a video interview with the cast.

Timeless: The cast and crew spoke with TV Line at Comic-Con. Deadline has up some highlights from the show’s panel. TV Line has up some highlights from their panel as well.

The Walking Dead: EW has up a photo of Rick and Maggie, conspiring to overthrow Negan. After the tragedy of stuntman John Bernecker’s death during filming, the show pulled back from some of its Comic-Con festivities, but still did have their panel. Deadline has up some highlights from it.

Westworld: There’s a new trailer out for season two. The show has added to their cast actors Neil Jackson (Absentia) and Jonathan Tucker (Kingdom).

Supernatural (Thursday nights, 8pm, CW)
By Paula R. Stiles

Check out my Patreon page. Help me keep this column going, pay Heather, and start doing Supernatural reviews again.

Filming for season 13 has begun.

The show has switched its reruns to Wednesdays at 9pm (this week is “Family Feud”), but will still return to 8pm on Thursdays when the new season begins on October 12. Its lead-out will be Arrow. Thanks to Eva for the change in the reruns day.

Warner Bros has announced details about the upcoming Wayward Sisters spinoff. As we already know, it will star Kim Rhodes (Jody Mills) and the rumor that Briana Buckmaster (Donna Hanscum) is in it was confirmed. Also starring will be Kathryn Newton (Claire Novak) and Alex Jones (Katherine Ramdeen), as well as new character Patience Turner (played by Clark Backo).

Patience, the only character we haven’t met yet, is a high school nerd and the granddaughter of Missouri Moseley from season one (who, it was confirmed at the show’s Comic-Con panel will return, probably for the backdoor pilot in time to get killed off). Patience has inherited her estranged grandmother’s psychic gift. While I’ll readily admit to huge reservations about this writing team doing a premise like this right (especially an African American character like Patience after what they did to the Family Banes last season), I do like the cast. So, I’m pulling for this to be done right.

Expect some crossovers à la the superhero shows if the backdoor pilot this season is picked up to series.

So, let’s talk San Diego Comic-Con and that panel. The best I can say about the panel itself spoilers-wise is “Well, that happened.” There was no promo or gag reel, though the rock group Kansas did perform “Carry On, Wayward Son” live at the beginning, which was pretty cool. But musical stunts like that often are used to mask terrible storytelling.

Only the first half or so of the panel was devoted to spoilers and they were rather thin on the ground. The order in which the GoHs entered (after Kansas performed, and hosts Richard Speight Jr. and Rob Benedict came in) was rather interesting: Bob Singer and Jensen Ackles, then Jared Padalecki, then Andrew Dabb, and then, after a few minutes, Misha Collins. Very different from last season, when it was Singer, Dabb, Padalecki, Ackles, Collins, Mark Sheppard and Samantha Smith. Also, Dabb didn’t talk much this time round. Singer did most of the showrunner talking.

You can catch vids of Kansas and the three-screen room here, here and here.

Regarding spoilers:

Castiel is really dead (“more dead than usual“), but that won’t stick. In a recent Chicon panel, Ackles discussed a scene they were filming on July 14 in which Ackles played a prank on Collins while Collins was trying to play dead and Ackles was miming Dean checking for signs of life. The show wouldn’t have had Collins in that scene if Castiel were dead and not coming back (remember how in “Sympathy for the Devil,” the season five premiere, the Brothers were stuck in the room with Lucifer, but the dead bodies of Lilith and Ruby were nowhere to be seen? Like that).

Also, Misha Collins is still a regular on the show and was at the panel. He came in late and there was a running joke about his having been fired, but refusing to acknowledge it. Collins was also in other promotional events, signings at the WB Booth, and a goofy EW “dance party” (here and here ) with Ackles and Padalecki, and did a brief interview with them for TV Guide. Bob Singer also essentially admitted that Castiel will be back as Castiel. Somehow.

Mary is not dead and will be seen in the alternate universe. Apparently, Sam thinks she’s alive and wants to look for her. Dean thinks she’s gone for good and wants to concentrate on more pressing matters. This sounds waaaaayyy OOC for Dean, to be honest. Anyhoo, Mary is pretty obviously coming back as a regular recurring character, though Samantha Smith was not at the panel.

Crowley’s suicide was mentioned and discussed several times, so he’s dead. Rowena’s death was also mentioned, but nobody said that would necessarily stick. There was talk of bringing back alternate versions of long-dead characters, which pretty much guaranteed we’ll see Alt-Bobby again and possibly Alt-Gabriel. Assuming there are alternate versions of the archangels.

Sam and Dean will be in conflict over how to deal with Jack (I know! I was shocked, too!). Sam wants to see if Jack can be redeemed and turned to Good (Nurture). Dean feels there’s no need to let things play out to a grim conclusion with a high body count they both know is coming (Nature), and that they should just shoot Jack and be done with it. As Ackles sarcastically put it about seeing how it goes, “What’s the worst that could happen?”

Padalecki noted that Sam would wonder, What if shooting Jack didn’t do the trick? Ackles said that Dean feels it would be better to know that up front. Considering that Dean’s instincts about characters like this are always right and Sam always puts his faith in the wrong powerful characters or groups (remember the LoL last season?), that’s pretty much admitting that Jack will turn out to be evil. Not to mention that Kelly’s death was brought up, as well as the possibility that Jack has some of her “goodness” in her, but no one said anything about Jack trying to save/resurrect his own mother. You’d think that would be the first thing he’d do if he had the capacity for love and goodness.

Andrew Dabb kept talking about how the Brothers started season 12 as “happiest” for them and in season 13, “we just murder.” I have no idea what season 12 Dabb is talking about, but it’s not the one I saw. Maybe it was in that alt-universe from the season finale.

There was much talk about a recent dream Ackles had about the end of the show and Sam dying in the last episode.

In his press room interview, Ackles said the show will pick up immediately upon the cliffhanger, with “Cas lying dead at Dean’s feet.” Overwhelmed, and filled with rage and grief (Ackles hopefully hinted the start of a major breakdown arc), Dean will ask God to resurrect all of the dead (including Crowley), though God will apparently not respond. Dean will then go after Jack with lethal force. Sam will try to stop Dean.

Ackles also talked about being asked by the group Kansas to perform up on stage with them. Struck with fannish stage fright, he declined, preferring to watch. Apparently, the group are fans of the show.

In response to a question about other Hunters on the show, Ackles said he’d like to see some, but it sounds as though none have shown up in the scripts he’s seen so far. About the animated Scooby-Doo episode, he said most of it would be animated, aside from a beginning and ending filmed in the “real world.” Ackles seemed quite perky about the episode.

In his press room interview, Jared Padalecki talked about Sam’s realization of how much he owes Dean and how much they are there for each other as brothers. He said that Sam and Dean are usually focused on some particular “task at hand” rather than emotional stuff. He also said that Sam will be identifying with Jack and obsessed with nurturing him into a good person, while trying to push down his own conflicting emotions about the deaths of last season: “We’ll see it all blow up eventually.”

Asked about how long the show may last, Padalecki ambiguously said it would end when the showrunners decided the quality could no longer continue. He actually gave fewer spoilers than Ackles.

Misha Collins first discussed DNRs (“Do Not Reveal”) and then went into a bit about what happens after Castiel’s death and the Brothers’ “grieving process.”  He says that Castiel, when he comes back, will at first be in a realm that has been talked about but never seen before on the show. He will be alone there save for another being, “played by a great actor,” who is very powerful (Michael? Gabriel? Someone else? Spec away). He also said this will be the last year he does GISHWHES.

Andrew Dabb talked a bit about the alt-verse and about how Sam and Dean are trying to get back to it to save Mary. He talked about how any old-new character who comes back has to “change” to justify their return and not be a cameo. He said the Banes twins won’t be in the spinoff, but may have their story resolved in the main show. He talked briefly, but vaguely, about the Scooby-Doo episode and hinted that Alt-Michael might be the character Castiel meets in the Other Place.

Writing is up to episode 11, already, and an episode similar to “The Vessel,” “but more ambitious,” is coming up in the first batch.

Bob Singer talked about how the Brothers respond to their grief, with the theme of last season being “family drawn together,” while this season is “family torn apart.” Oh, yay. Business as usual, then.

Singer said Sam wants to open up the alt-verse rift, even though Dean worries it’s too dangerous (in the panel, they talked about how Mary intentionally sacrificed herself going through the rift, so she may not be thrilled to find out Sam risked it all to rescue her). More blather like last season about going “smaller in scale” (I am really beginning to hate that phrase).

The spinoff will be a two-parter, 13.09 and 13.10. The Brothers will be strongly involved in 13.09 and barely in 13.10.

Season 12 is available for pre-order on Amazon and will come out on September 5.

There will be three calendars for 2018: two large calendars out on July 1 and two mini calendars on September 1.

I’ve moved my Official live recaps to this site and simul-recapping at Wayward Friends, with reviews to follow. I’m working on the review for the season finale now.

No repeats last week, so no ratings this week.

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54 thoughts on “Whispers, Spoilers & Speculation Corner: 07/24/17: The San Diego Comic-Con Edition”

  1. Talking about Jack possibly inheriting some of Kelly’s “goodness” is nauseating. She waffled on ending a pregnancy while it was still feasible to do so, but then failed to embrace the decision to have the child or prepare accordingly; she sought assistance from a demon, but then whined about her fate when it was clearly her choices that led to it; she attempted murder/suicide. Even when Jack “saved” her, she continued to frame things in terms of what he could do for her, rather than what responsibility she might have toward him. I’m sorry, but building a crib is not evidence of goodness. Since Jack had in utero awareness, I would imagine he would be pretty ambivalent toward his mother and have no desire to bring her back. That awareness also prevents him from being a truly blank slate.

    What unexplored realm could Castiel be stuck in? The only ones I can think of are Faerie and the Void.

    Sam identifying with the monster sounds like business as usual. He just can’t quite get past himself, even if he damns the world in the process. It would be nice to see him acknowledge how much he owes Dean, but let’s hope he does it in terms of, say, actual emotional support instead of big heroic gestures.

    I would normally agree that Dean not going after Mary seems OOC, but Dean ended the season at a pretty low point. In the past, he had been pretty damn pessimistic and fatalistic when at his most depressed. This seems more like a reboot of season 7.

    1. A lot of it does sound like business as usual. And the way they kept banging away at how it was Mary’s choice to sacrifice herself and how dangerous it is to open the rift back up, Sam’s desire to endanger the entire world to save Mary sounds a lot less loving and altruistic, and more like…uh…Sam.

      I agree about Kelly. She had a moral compass about as strong as a paper plate in the wind. And Jack has this whole plan he gave to Castiel while still in utero. Jack’s not a blank slate. He’s already got a path and the path ain’t good.

      I wish they’d just gone with Sam being brainwashed like Castiel. It would be less stupid.

  2. I do not see why alt-Michael would be where dead Cas is unless alt-Michael is dead. Thinking it would be a dead angel, arc-angel or Death.
    Angels are multi-dimensional beings. Not sure that they should have alt versions.
    Dabb is not a deep thinker. Neither is Singer.
    It makes no sense for Dean to abandon Mary Like that which is exactly what Sam did in season 8 and tried to do in season 1. Dean is all about family and repeatedly risked h8mself to save her and Sam last season.
    Depression notwithstanding, they have to convince me that he is sure she is dead. I agree that opening the rift is dangerous and Dean would know Mary wouldn’t want them to sacrifice the world to save her.
    However the way it’s described doesn’t sound like Dean…
    Of course…

    They may be setting him up to do a reckless sacrifice like saying yes to Michael .

    Dean! MICHAEL is my new Phoenix Dean.

    Sam never learns does he. If he endangers the world again and then shrugs and,says it is on us, Dean should just shoot him.

    I liked 12 better in repeat because somehow Dabb delivered thematically even if the writing sucked, the lol made no sense and they shafted Mark Shepherd and Crowley . I still have no faith in Singer and Dabb.

  3. I read and they had Winners and Losers from Comic Con and THEY said that Supernatural was one of the Winners because of the Kansas appearance.

    Said it was ‘incredibly’ energizing. (Also said the show did not have a lot to say about what is going on ON the show.) So the response to the Kansas appearance was ‘super’ positive.

    1. The general opinion is that the Kansas appearance was great and iconic and a good time had by all, including Kansas. However, it was in place of the usual clip and the panel was a tad light on spoilers or even direction for the season. This show is fairly notorious for throwing in a rock song and “epic” moment whenever it knows it’s lacking some substance or the writing is crap (AC/DC’s “For Those About to Rock” at the end of “Slumber Party,” for example).

      So, Kansas appearance great as a rock moment, not so great as a sign of the upcoming season.

      1. Yeah. Kansas was bells and whistles.
        It’s so sad and so bad if the reason is they really don’t know where the season is going because despite Dabbler and hacks and Singer- the crusher of greatness, they actually set up an interesting premise with legs. Not only are we exploring the Winchester psychology through Mary and Dean’s psychology which derives from the tragic loss of Mary, they have the opportunity to show the Winchesters that they matter and what they do does matter via a f’D up it’s so NOT a wonderful life bizzaro Apocalypse scenario. AND they can use it to bring back some great characters that died too soon because showrunners can be stupid Dicks.
        AND they set up Dean frantic to save Mary at any cost Mary!Lucifer and Dean! Michael beautifully.

        So the umm… yeah… so here’s Kansas is disconcerting.

        I want to believe that they don’t want to give anything away but the Scoobie episode but Singer has a track record of seeing the show exclusively in the framework of the original character bullets from 2004; ie. Sam is the hero.

        2. Dabb could be Kripke double downed. He could have accidentally set up this great premise but is sticking with his original idea which is Sam centric and meh. The argument against this is that he had no idea what to do with Sam last season except to tie him in a chair and torture him and have him be sympathetic to Mary and all the women I’m peril they encountered. Of course at this point Singer could have decided Sam needs to save the day.
        And yeah. Dean could be in one of his I give up funks… in which case there had better be a shirtless Dean and Baby Montage set to some kickass mope rock.

        3. Singer decide they will pull a Sleepy Hollow and they will ignore every mytharc implication they set up, rescue Mary immediately as well as fan favs Bobby and charlie and proceed to a case a week until the show ends.

        I am liking the season better on rematch because Dabb really did telescope the Apocalypse so well and of course the fact that Mary and Dean’s relationship and respective psychologies were so important. They emphasized mother/child dynamics and family, family lineages so well.
        Just every episode was more or less meh except when the acting transcending the writing.
        In that regard I put Letch pretty high up in the pantheon of villians. That man can act and his interest in Mary and by extension Dean makes my skin crawl in a way only Azazel and Alastair managed to do. I like the actor so much I would love to see a bizarrof Letch that still has the hots for Mary but belongs to an honorable BMOL. Make him an out of step foppish Wesley Wyndham Price kind of character. Nails on chalkboard to Dean.

        1. The problem is not just the ideas the showrunners are coming up with. They’re not *all* bad. It’s that the writing of those ideas stinks at the episode level. And that’s a huge problem because it doesn’t matter how good the ideas sound or are if the execution blows.

        2. I agree season 12 is better on rewatch. You can take your focus off the larger plot arc, which made no sense, and attend to the psychological details which were pretty good. And I did enjoy a lot of the MOW episodes, plot holes and all.

          I don’t need convincing that Dean thinks Mary is dead, so much that he thinks the danger to the rest of the world is too great to give in to what he might want, in bringing Mary back. But I’m sure she will be back. I’d kind of like to see her rescue herself. She’s smart and resourceful.

          I’d like to see them do something with Sam’s emotional development. I actually think the character of Sam is interesting from a thematic point of view, as a sort of compare and contrast of Sam’s apparent “niceness” to Dean’s genuine, but surly goodness. My own family members have a hard time seeing past this and often think Sam the more heroic and good character. But if you pay attention, the evidence has never supported this.

          That said, it would be nice to see Sam grow up. Clearly this can’t be in the form of heroic gestures, given his track record, but growth in the areas of gratitude, humility and responsibility are wide open for any character. And there has been some slow movement in that direction. In real life, effecting lasting change tends to be a slow one step forward, three quarters of a step back process. I’d probably be more frustrated with the process if I’d watched the show slowly over twelve seasons instead of binge watching it for two years on Netflix.

          1. I agree about Sam. It was refreshing to have him take responsibility finally for how he treated Sully and Dean. I was pleased overall with Carver’s character Exploration of both brothers that culminated in a redemption archaeological for Sam and acknowledgement by Chuck that what Dean does makes a difference; Dean makes a difference.

            I think the current writers have absolutely no idea how to write Sam. Opening the season with two episodes of hurt Sam conservation plate with obligatory Sam pimping was surreal to the brink of parody. Then he is just there more or less rolling his eyes over classic Deanisms and being sympathetic to female monsters or monster adjacent young ladies.
            Having him decide the MoL was the future after they proved to be clueless fops during that vampire raid made no sense. Whining that small victories don’t count because Lucifer is on us… well that’s Major backsliding in the character growth department. Sam displayed more maturity than Lucifer I suppose…
            However Sam’s season 12 arc was pitiful compared to that of Crowley , Mary and Dean. And Crowley was short changed by the
            Castiel is another character that no one knows how to write, however Misha’s performance does more to connect the dots than Jared’s does.
            Dean was trapped in an alternate plane and abandoned by Sam in season 8. It was the main point of contention. Furthermore Dean was manic about Mary in season 12 and risked his life to save her more than once. This is why I cannot believe Dean is not doing everything he can do to save her which means sacrificing himself to effect her rescue.
            I get he made need a rock fueled shirtless car maintenance Montage and a lot of whiskey. But then he should dust himself off and try to find a way to save her that won’t risk the world.
            What is risk they fear anyway. The rift was opened and closed without any world burning issues. Just make sure you have a plan that will kill Lucifer before you open it. And the only thing they know will work is Michael’s Lance, and of course they need Michael to repair it first. We already know that THE cage is damaged. And for all we know it wasn’t designed to hold Michael. Michael may need his own get out of funk montage or a pretty speech from Dean to get his Mojo back.
            So yeah. Sam being Gung ho about saving Mary and Dean wanting to go back to business as usual doesn’t make sense. Hopefully it is a red herring/alternative fact.

          2. When TNT got around to Season 1 (I began my watch at the end of Season 4) I was surprised that from the beginning the scripts (!) actually had Sam do that ‘concerned’ thing with the family in Wendigo and THEN when they got bac to their motel complained bitterly to Dean about ‘babysitting the civilians’ and ‘I gotta find Dad.’ That opened me up to what I see as Sam’s essentially ‘outsider’ nature: in Season 1 I could see he was faking a lot of his interactions with non-family (ie non-Dean) people. Not attractive, yet my husband said when he began the rewatch with me that the show was ‘very’ much Sam’s Story, we learned about the supernatural thru Sam and were supposed to empathize with Sam’s Issues. BUT Pete said pretty quickly we saw how Dean was ‘watching out’ for Sam and that he was an interesting gravity point as well, it became more even after first 1/3 of Season 1.

  4. I got relatives visiting. My granddaughter said early in the am (SPN is on TNT from 8am to 12noon or 1pm) OH we get to watch SPN. Thank you, gramma.

    My son came up and we were watching the Golem episode so husband Pete said, let’s watch the Let’s Kill Hitler episode. So I put that one on and my son said, that was such a FUN episode, it was fun to watch. (He said the same thing about the next episode which is the Asa Fox episode because it started off with Dean saying, I killed Hitler. Hey, I got a question: EVEN if the water was off, shouldn’t there have been water in the tanks? I lose water all the time in my rural area and even if the water is SOLIDLY off — not even a trickle — there is always water in the tank…heck, in the TOILET itself if they want to make holy water. Or were they saying that Stunt Demon also disappeared all the water? Just a plot hole in my eyes.

    1. The whole water thing was a big plothole in that episode. The writing tried much too hard to make a garden-variety demon that dangerous against a bunch of Hunters at this late date.

  5. I think I am going to ask my priest if you could make Holy Water out of BEER. I seem to remember in childhood being told that if somebody was DYING and they wanted to be BAPTIZED beer would do in a pinch (The ‘things’ 5th graders ask the Pastor during his weekly visitations to the classroom!) but I don’t know if that is true. Heck, they had ICE buckets in the kitchen Unless Camiel (or whatever) also threw out the beer and the ice bucket, ice can melt pretty fast if you put it in a pot and turn the HEAT on.

    I think the devils’ trap was an interesting work-around, but I am still stuck on the water issue. Don’t worry, I am going to sleep soon and I won’t bring it up again. It’s just, it bugs me now.

    1. I don’t see why not. Bobby put holy water in beer to trick Meg in “Born Under a Bad Sign” and the beer didn’t affect the water’s holiness.

      Hell, they even had spit.

  6. I like you, Paula, if only because YOU know what I mean when I say this is the sort of stuff Catholic kids in ‘catechism class’ ask when a priest shows up to ‘explain’ stuff.

    I did think of beer used as holy water exclusively (not just put IN holy water) or spit. We had all kinds of stupid things we asked Pastor Murphy.

    1. Well, I was baptized Catholic, went to a Catholic college, and just got confirmed Episcopalian. So, I’m fairly up on my catechism stuff. What’s depressing is the number of people who are Catholic, went through catechism, and don’t remember of it.

      1. Congratulations on your confirmation. I’ve attended an Episcopalian church for the past two years myself. The liturgy is lovely, though I have yet to be brave enough to consider confirmation.

    2. Beer or spit as Holy Water. Heh. I’m intrigued by the whole concept of Holy Water, concept , manufacture and purposes. The religious tradition I spent 30 plus years in had no such equivalent.

      1. I am guessing Judaism based on the way you spell your name.
        They cast out demons in Judaism too. What do they use besides holy scripture.

        1. I often times wonder how non-Catholics view Catholic mysticism because it is ‘our’ rituals that get used in these supernatural type shows.

          I will say that Jared Padalecki has learned to pronounce the Exorciamus te…. VERY WELL.

        2. Not Judaism, but evangelical christianity with a side of fundamentalism. My mother had a thing for bible names. There was much talk at church of demons, and deliverances were via prayer alone, although I never saw any such thing. It took me decades to get the guts to leave.

          1. Interesting. Yes I guess Evangelicals don’t borrow from Catholicism. We were horrified to find out that some don’t even know Catholics are Christians.

      2. I often times wonder what non-Catholics think of Catholics when they see so many ‘supernatural-type’ shows using Catholic practices (like the rosaries, or just saying In nomine Patris et filius et spiritus sanctus and VOILA! it’s holy water!) which are the most-used ‘backgrounds’ of any demony-ghosty-monstery show.

        Heck, I am still thrown that the Latin I learned in HS/College was the wrong pronunciation (they decided Italianate pronunciation is wrong a German pronunciation is right based on GRAFFITI which spelled out words that kids did not know how to spell so they sounded it out!) and thus VENI VIDI VICI is pronounced WENI WIDI WICKI.

        1. It depends on the person, and their background I suppose. My own was fairly strict, and we probably wouldn’t have watched a show like Supernatural at all. Fantasy, scifi, and horror were all pretty much discouraged.

          And yes, “Catholics aren’t Christians” is a thing. I remember being taught that as a teenager, and it was the first thing that tripped my nonsense meter. It wasn’t the last.

          1. So they just ignore the fact that the church. That Peter was charged by Christopher to found is the Catholic church.

        2. I was baptized Episcopal. My mom’s family are Catholic. Italian Catholics so there was an emphasis on the supernatural in the family. I have been told I bear rhe family mark that protects me from demon possession for instance.
          My husband was raised Catholic and we ate the godparents to one nephew. I was gobsmacked during the ceremony that I was expected to save my godson from Satan and his minions. That is a lot to ask of anyone in my opinion.

  7. The hideous Man and His Girl Dog is on right now. UGH. Anyway, was it ever thought that ‘this’ could’ve been another unrealized ‘back-door pilot for another show’ because it fits nowhere in the year, I mean, I know there are ‘always’ one-offs but THIS one-off is just so random it’s too random.

    So the series would be set in Chicago where there WITCH COVENS running a secret society had fun bars and such. There was a hot man-witch detective (I think I can safely say he was chosen to be attractive) with his BLACK (dog) girlfriend. Hits many demographics. I have noticed over the years that there are a whole bunch of SPN episodes set in Chicago. AND that Bloodlines was set up to be in Chicago.

    It all boils down to me thinking there is some writer who has a jones for using Chicago as the back-drop and trying to set up a spin-off.

    I turned on the tv, saw Portia as a Doberman and I just said NOPE. Now if it turns out because I am a coward and could not dvr back to the beginning of the episode and this is NOT set in Chicago…well, I guess I made no point in this comment. But I just ‘can’t’ with this show.

    1. There was no point to this episode really. We learned nothing that we didn’t already know. It’s only purpose was to give Mick a character arc which is stupid because someone that succeeded in the BMOL has already chosen the organization over heart and soul. Mamby Pamby micky would have been taken out by someone stronger with ambition long ago.
      Why wasn’t Crowley given a few episodes that explored him and hisee poignant arc.

      1. Oh, I don’t know. That school and it’s initiation rites crossed the line into sheer and utter nonsense, but if the indoctrination storyline had been presented more subtly, I could have bought it. Believing that what you are doing is right and good is a powerful incentive, and I could see a man in that position only gradually and belatedly asking questions about it. It’s just that there is just no way to present forcing children to kill children as anything but evil. Since he was the only one who was presented as having a scrap of conscience, he should have figured out they were bad news years earlier.

        1. Right now I see the analogy to the play GOOD which I saw in Costa Mesa about 30yr ago. It is a man who is a professor of Philosophy in Germany. He and his wife are ‘good’ people. However her dementia-ill mother is living with them and making their life holy hell. He writes a paper that sometimes ‘some’ people have to be ‘excised’ from the world because they are useless and an actual drain. (The law would not do anything to hasten MIL’s death yet Prof believes in every essential way she IS dead.) From this he gets Nazi approval. They use his thesis to justify getting rid of the old, the sick, the ‘infirm’ (which includes people of the ‘wrong’ background pretty quickly) and then those considered a ‘blight’ on the body politic, ie Germany. The last scene has this ‘good’ man putting on a Nazi SS uniform and walking out to a Nuremberg rally.

          You are right that ‘telling’ people what they are doing is right and holy can get them to do awful awful things. I suggest that when Mick killed his friend at the school, he added up the costs/benefits/risks to HIMSELF (his friend spoke of THEM, I remember the friend was also trying to get Mick out) because he had nowhere else to go and so murdered his friend. After that his commitment was total (until it wasn’t, after he met The Winchesters; I swear Dean could convince almost anyone of anything in the show’s orbit) and he was the ‘soft face’ compared to Lady Toni and Dr Hess. He could ‘convince’ people to do stuff in a nice fashion, and then they were in and that was that. Now MAYBE it was the killing of were-wolf girl and that was the first time he had killed anyone (not an actual monster monster, not a girl becoming a monster) in the name of the Cause. But it seemed like that to me.

  8. second time this happened: I wrote out a response and got a ‘error in establishing database.’ I rewrote the comment and it worked.

    Claire’s character is so like Dean’s to me: she finds validation in hunting and ‘saving people’ because her whole life was torn apart for the ‘greater good’ and just knowing that GOOD came of it (Castiel assisted in stopping the Apocalypse) she was still screwed. Like Dean’s little coda in Wendigo, her life was so screwed up she figures she might as well save ‘others’ from what she had gone thru. She was written to be Young Girl Dean.

    1. Claire is a lighter version of Dean. Not to diminish Claire’s suffering, which was significant, but at least she had eleven happy years in which to establish her personality and she did eventually find her way to a new loving family. External support is something he has never really had.

    2. Yes. Show has established that clearly. And Alex is Sam. She’s in nursing school but will get dragged into hunting in time for Wayward Daughters. Who wants to put money on Jody goes missing on a hunt.
      We already know Claire is a female Dean. She has been since her introduction and they doubled down on that premise with each subsequent appearance. We also know that she wants to hunt, lives to hunt and that she and Dean share a bond because they get each other and he can effectively parent her when others cannot because he was her and he doesn’t infantilize her even as he takes away her beer.
      The episode served no purpose except to say hi Claire and whoa Mick is actually really bad at his job and Dean is really always the smartest one in the room because he saw through Mick immediately.

  9. I just watched About A Boy and I wondered if Dean hulked out at the end, when he squeezed the hex bag and became adult Dean. It seemed Hansel had no ability to defend himself and the Witch had no recourse to magic for the 30sec or so when Dean stuffed her into the oven.

    I could not figure out ‘why’ Dean stuffed the hex bag into her mouth (he had that intent look he gets when he is ‘going’ MEGA imo) knowing that Tina still needed it.

    I was watch Hibbing 911 yesterday and I have to say I would like Donna ‘with’ Dean and also Tina. She just seems worldly wise to me and I like how calm she was with all the witch craziness.

    1. I think the low growling, and all the previous conversation about the Mark being dormant when he was “younger,” is intended to indicate that he does “hulk out” when he changes back. My impression was that he stuffs the bag into the Witch’s mouth so that she can’t utter any spell before he shoves her into the oven. In the heat of the moment, either he doesn’t think to rescue it or there’s no time.

      Donna would be good for Dean and vice versa. Dean appreciates Donna for what she is.

    2. I always wondered about that episode. If de-aging actually removed the Mark, or at least made it go dormant – I suppose it might still have been affecting his soul – why did no one later pursue the idea of paying some witch to de-age him again ? It would only need to be by a few years. Of course, there might be good reasons not to pursue it and I’m sure Dean was aware of every single one. But really, de-aging was no more hairbrained than the plan Sam eventually settled on, and it might have bought Sam some time to search out a better solution. After all, it showed that Sam was willing to work with a witch. The fact that the de-aging solution never came up again, if only to consider and reject, seemed like a plot hole to me.

      1. It was a little silly, anyway, but the story logic appears to be that witches jealously guard their trade secrets and the knowledge of how to make such a bag died with that particular witch. It’s possible Dean intentionally destroyed the hex bag because he was wary of its tempting Sam later on.

        1. Possibly, and I can see Dean being concerned about Sam and temptation. But even if individual spell work is proprietary, concepts generally are not. I find it hard to believe that no other witch in that world was able to come up with something that produced similar results.

          1. You would think, but then, we’ve had too many instances of a witch (especially in later Rowena-centered stories) coming up with something completely proprietary that no other witch can copy unless she (or he) has that witch’s grimoire. Witch powers are extremely idiosyncratic and arbitrary, which is part of the reason why they are kind of a copout as an MOTW. They give the writers way too much rope.

  10. I dvr’d Midnight, Texas on Monday and ‘finally’ watched it tonight. Christopher Heyerdahl shows up next week as The Big Bad. Even my husband squealed (well, he said, OH HIM, good actor).

    I looked it up and it is being shot in NM: I recognized two sets! One was the entrance to Isleta Pueblo Gaming and the other was a road south and a little west of Albuquerque (or as we call it here, ABQ). I ‘love’ things shot in NM.

    Oh, I don’t know one way or the other if this is true but I read that From Dusk to Dawn: The Series (also filmed in NM, and I picked out the biker bar — with the signage No Colors! — called Silva’s Saloon on US66 (yeah, we got Route 66 all over the place here even if it is called something else) has not yet been renewed. Oh pooey. That thing is filmed on a thread, not even a shoestring. Hope they bring it back.

    But again, Christopher Heyerdahl is back on a series. Yippee. He was his very disconcerting scary self in the previews.

    1. I haven’t seen Midnight, Texas, yet. Still binge-watching Relic Hunter and Hooten and the Lady (the latter having improved only minimally). I’m way behind on From Dusk Until Dawn. End of season two, I think?

  11. I watched 3hr of SPN today on TNT. I am liking Season 10 more than I remember. Of the non-core seasons (everything after 5) I liked 11 the best and now I think 10 just before it. I liked the twist in The Werther Box for instance. If you watch all the episodes of the season NOW I can see the way Jensen was calibrating his ‘fall’ to the Mark of Cain and I like the series much better for that. Sam saying every week, Dean is losing his fight against the Mark…I did not see it in particular any week. But as a totality, now I do.

    1. I think Ackles did a great job of showing Dean slowly losing control and losing his mind. It was a slow-motion nervous breakdown.

      Sam’s reaction was a little harder to buy in terms of altruistic motives, largely because what he was doing to try to “fix” things was very counterproductive and, in light of some of the things he said and did, mean-spirited. I mean, his actions in 10.03 are quite vicious and an awful lot like 1950s shock therapy.

      1. Or ice pick labotomies.

        I do not think Carver intended Sam to be heroic in season 10. It was an entire season of Sam being worse than Dean despite being the human brother. A stark contrast to Dean’s behavior as a demon and Marked man as well as Dean’s caring human arc during seasons

        Carver really emphasized that although Dean’s flaws, low self worth and a desire to sacrifice himself for the greater good, may lead to dire circumstances as in his demon deal or the Mark; Dean never intends to hurt anyone but himself and he feels tremendous remorse and guilt when his suicidal impulses affect others.

        Equally he emphasized that Sam’s flaw of hubris and the colossal shoulder chip he carries consistently drive him to believe any risk is acceptable and any action is acceptable as long as Sam gets the glory and Sam gets what he wants.

        Carver often paralleled the brothers stories to emphasize these core differences, sometimes even in the same episode. Three instances that
        immediately come to mind:
        The parallels in the season 10 premiere in which Sam effectively plays the demon’s role in tempting and damning Lester and condemning Lester’s wife to death whilst Demonic Dean refuses to play the demon and effectively plays hunter by killing Lester after deciding he is evil thereby saving the innocent wife.

        The parallels between Dean’s discomfort at seeing Sam tortured and in pain whilst Crowley attempts to remove Gadreel’s hold on him and Sam enjoying the brutal and tortuous aspects of curing demonic Dean, even making it more painful than it needs to be.

        The parallels in the season 10 finale are striking. The supposedly out of control Dean feels remorse when Rudy becomes collateral damage in a hunt even though Rudy was a dead man regardless of Dean’s presence. Later Dean refuses to perform a human sacritics to save himself. In contrast Sam has been out of control for episodes risking both Charlie and Cas and sanctions a human sacrifice and risks destroying the world, all because he needs to be the one to save Dean.

        There’s some interesting parallels in the all Stones must die episode too. In that case Sam is actually paired with Papa Styne whilst Crowley and Dean are paired. The comparison is made in the editing. We cut between the Scenes between Sam and Papa Stone both thinking they have the upper hand before their fallen adversaries betray their greater power.
        I think Carver pulled no punches to show that Sam in season 10 was no hero.

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